Jason Pierre-Paul, Everson Griffen and Carlos Dunlap

[furley]

I've read that each of these players ran a 4.6 and stand in the 6'3'' to 6'6'' height and 270 lbs (or more) weight ranges. They all seem to project as an outside linebacker in a 3-4 but can be a defensive end also.

If given a choice, would New England select either one at twenty-two should they be there.

The way I understand it...


Jason Pierre-Paul - 6'5'', 270 lbs (1)
What are the knocks on him: Raw, intelligence, maturity, experience, one-year starter

Everson Griffen - 6'3'', 273 lbs (1-2)
What are the knocks on him: Underachiever, work ethnic, inconsistency, one-year starter

Carlos Dunlap - 6'6'', 277 lbs (1-2)
What are the knocks on him: Character, work ethnic, inconsistency


Of the three, Pierre-Paul is the most unlikely to slide to New England. However, it's certainly feasible that either Griffen or Dunlap could be there. Apparently, pundits would've you believe that Dunlap is the one you should avoid like the plague but he's the one that could've an impact as a rookie as oppose to the other two. That is, depending on which team he ends up on. Also, I understand that Florida has produced some good players at defensive end. The most notable being Jevon Kearse.

New England needs an impact defensive end. A player who's young with tremendous upside. The concerns you've for some of these players is you can't truly project how they'll do, they could be an immediate impact or a longterm bust. However, Dunlap's one of those players that could make sense for the Patriots for a few reasons. First, he was projected to go much higher initially than he'll likely go now. Second, the Patriots tend not to be in a position to draft a top talent (top meaning top fifteen) and have to be fortunate that someone unexpectedly fell to them like Wilfork. Here's a player who could represent a top talent on paper but won't be drafted as such. So, if you draft him, you might have a perceived top ten or fifteen player signed to a considerable less salary.

Regardless, with any of these three players, the Patriots have Belichick and that should count for something if you decide to take a chance on one of them. Especially, Dunlap...

 

[patsfan-1982]

Jason Pierre-Paul, who wont get passed denver at #11 is the only OLB i would take over Sergio Kindle, and Jerry Hughes, who sould both be there at #22


Carlos Dunlap, IMO is not even a first round pick. and is only a 4-3 DE


Everson Griffen, IMO would not be much more then AD in this system maybe 40 to 50 tackels and 4 or 5 sacks a year noting special.

 

[Marqui]

I bet you were one of those guys that liked Jamaal Anderson and Vernon Gholston too.

 

[MaineMan]

I'd take Carrington or Te'o-Nesheim over any of those guys.

 

[DW Toys]

I'd take Carrington or Te'o-Nesheim over any of those guys.

Not bad.
DW Toys

 

[DW Toys]

I've read that each of these players ran a 4.6 and stand in the 6'3'' to 6'6'' height and 270 lbs (or more) weight ranges. They all seem to project as an outside linebacker in a 3-4 but can be a defensive end also.

If given a choice, would New England select either one at twenty-two should they be there.

The way I understand it...


Jason Pierre-Paul - 6'5'', 270 lbs (1)
What are the knocks on him: Raw, intelligence, maturity, experience, one-year starter

Everson Griffen - 6'3'', 273 lbs (1-2)
What are the knocks on him: Underachiever, work ethnic, inconsistency, one-year starter

Carlos Dunlap - 6'6'', 277 lbs (1-2)
What are the knocks on him: Character, work ethnic, inconsistency


Of the three, Pierre-Paul is the most unlikely to slide to New England. However, it's certainly feasible that either Griffen or Dunlap could be there. Apparently, pundits would've you believe that Dunlap is the one you should avoid like the plague but he's the one that could've an impact as a rookie as oppose to the other two. That is, depending on which team he ends up on. Also, I understand that Florida has produced some good players at defensive end. The most notable being Jevon Kearse.

New England needs an impact defensive end. A player who's young with tremendous upside. The concerns you've for some of these players is you can't truly project how they'll do, they could be an immediate impact or a longterm bust. However, Dunlap's one of those players that could make sense for the Patriots for a few reasons. First, he was projected to go much higher initially than he'll likely go now. Second, the Patriots tend not to be in a position to draft a top talent (top meaning top fifteen) and have to be fortunate that someone unexpectedly fell to them like Wilfork. Here's a player who could represent a top talent on paper but won't be drafted as such. So, if you draft him, you might have a perceived top ten or fifteen player signed to a considerable less salary.

Regardless, with any of these three players, the Patriots have Belichick and that should count for something if you decide to take a chance on one of them. Especially, Dunlap...

It will take around $4.5m to sign RFA Ray Edwards. It will cost us #22 for his Team the Vikes. Young 26, NFL experienced, 11 sacks the last eleven games. I say again...No brainer! The Vikes use that pick for Clausen. Who is better for us at that #22?
Answer? NADA.
DW Toys

 

[Snake Eyes]

I'd take Carrington or Te'o-Nesheim over any of those guys.

I'll take Carrington and Te'o-Nesheim, please. I don't know why BB would spend the highest draft picks on guys with attitude and work ethic problems, we let other teams take those guys, BB would prefer a smart but mediocre talent player who is willing to run through a wall in order to get the job done. The high-talent cases with attitude just wind up arrested and/or suspended and don't become contributors.

Misi is the OLB and we take O'Brien Schofield later on, Schofield's stock was soaring upwards until the Senior Bowl when he tore a ligament in his knee, he'd likely be a 1st or 2nd round talent if not for the injury, he'd be a good 5th round risk.

 

[MaineMan]

It will take around $4.5m to sign RFA Ray Edwards. It will cost us #22 for his Team the Vikes. Young 26, NFL experienced, 11 sacks the last eleven games. I say again...No brainer! The Vikes use that pick for Clausen. Who is better for us at that #22?
Answer? NADA.
DW Toys

Not bad (back atcha).

 

[patchick]

It will take around $4.5m to sign RFA Ray Edwards.

Just curious, where does this number come from?

Edit: For a reference point, Calvin Pace got a 6-year, $42 million deal with $22 million guaranteed from the Jets two years ago with a much less consistent resume.

 

[DW Toys]

Just curious, where does this number come from?

Edit: For a reference point, Calvin Pace got a 6-year, $42 million deal with $22 million guaranteed from the Jets two years ago with a much less consistent resume.

He signs his tender it is $2.521m I believe. No guarantees at $4.5m $4.75m that he signs. Just an educated WAG. He said he just wants a "fair" deal.

$6M is too much and the Pats won't spend that so it is a moot point. $3-$4m the Vikes just resign him. Somewhere in between.

Pace was also an UFA in a bidding war with no #1 compensation. It was also said that the Jets way over paid for him but he seems to be living up to his present salary just fine. $7m a year was too much for him back then. But without giving up a first maybe you can pay more, unlike Edwards.

I think the Vikes will not want to spend $6m on Edwards nor will the Pats. No one wants to lose a first rounder and get stuck with that Salary. At that much money you are better off to grab Haynesworth and he might only cost you a second rounder.

Edwards is actually younger than Pace. But the actual number is high fours or lower if possible and Edwards does not want to take his tender money and after the 15th it goes down. This is perfect leveraging for the Pats .....but I suspect that the Vikes have hard interest in Clausen and #22 might get him. They might not fight the Pats to get that pick.

Patchik, In summary, just trying to use some common sense if the Pats are at all interested. $6 is too high for us and $3m the Vikes resign him. I think #22 is a value for them and they have another young talent Brian Robinson ready to take his place. They need someone to understudy Farve and Jackson and Rosenfels are not the long term answer.

I don't know...4 years for $20m, $10m guaranteed?

It just seems like the well used term...No Brainer for all sides (if Clausen is in play especially)
DW Toys

 

[BillBelichickFan79]

He signs his tender it is $2.521m I believe. No guarantees at $4.5m $4.75m that he signs. Just an educated WAG. He said he just wants a "fair" deal.

$6M is too much and the Pats won't spend that so it is a moot point. $3-$4m the Vikes just resign him. Somewhere in between.

Pace was also an UFA in a bidding war with no #1 compensation. It was also said that the Jets way over paid for him but he seems to be living up to his present salary just fine. $7m a year was too much for him back then. But without giving up a first maybe you can pay more, unlike Edwards.

I think the Vikes will not want to spend $6m on Edwards nor will the Pats. No one wants to lose a first rounder and get stuck with that Salary. At that much money you are better off to grab Haynesworth and he might only cost you a second rounder.

Edwards is actually younger than Pace. But the actual number is high fours or lower if possible and Edwards does not want to take his tender money and after the 15th it goes down. This is perfect leveraging for the Pats .....but I suspect that the Vikes have hard interest in Clausen and #22 might get him. They might not fight the Pats to get that pick.

Patchik, In summary, just trying to use some common sense if the Pats are at all interested. $6 is too high for us and $3m the Vikes resign him. I think #22 is a value for them and they have another young talent Brian Robinson ready to take his place. They need someone to understudy Farve and Jackson and Rosenfels are not the long term answer.

I don't know...4 years for $20m, $10m guaranteed?

It just seems like the well used term...No Brainer for all sides (if Clausen is in play especially)
DW Toys

I love Ray Edwards as much as you do, but I just don't see it happening. I can't see BB giving up a first round pick and possibly extending Edwards. If the Vikings were willing to work out a sign and trade for one of our 2nd round picks, it might be possible, but I just don't see it. BB has always loved his draft picks at the end of the first and in the 2nd, and I would think he'd love those picks even more in such a deep draft where you can add first round talents in the second round for a much cheaper price.

I'm a big Ray Edwards fan, but unfortunately I just don't see it happening. Giving up a draft pick + having to pay him a decent amount of money is too much for a guy that has never played OLB in a 3-4 before.

 

[furley]

I meant to write ethic.

I found this on Griffen.

Each week leading up to April’s NFL Draft, New England native Steve Muench of ESPN’s Scouts Inc., will identify a player he thinks could be a good fit for the Patriots. This week, it is Southern California defensive end/outside linebacker Everson Griffen:

“The biggest concerns with him are instincts and motor. He will have to improve in both of those areas, but that said I think the Patriots are a perfect fit for him. They have the leadership in place to bring a player like him along. I’m thinking of a player like Jerod Mayo at linebacker, who would help him in terms of his reads. There are some minor off-field concerns with Griffen, but I don’t think they are huge issues.

Griffen would be big presence at OLB - Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

 

[chevss454]

I'm not liking any of these 3 at 22.

JPP. I spent 3 hrs watching film on him recently and I don't see why pundits are enamored at all. Raw only begins to describe his lack of instincts. Yes, he is a physical freak but watch him run. He gains his speed and strength from his core and thighs. From the knee down he is built skinny and long like a gazelle. That scares me for 2 reasons: 1) he has a lot of length with skinny calves and 2) standing straight up, his foot placement is lateral (outside) of his knees. Iow, he is the opposite of bowlegged. This predisposes JPP to ACL and MCL injuries. Rawness, lack of instinct, lack of experience, and predisposition to injury --> no thanks

Griffen. With his well-known inconsistency I doubt Griffen is even on the Pats' board.

Dunlap. 2nd rounder and Pats have better options. Dunlap tends to watch the play rather than make the play. He has physical tools but not physicality. The Pats need football players with drive and passion; Dunlap fails on both accounts.

The Pats' biggest need on defense is edge rushing to collapse the pocket. BB is now in charge of the defense and I think he goes after his edge rushers first, DE and DE/OLB conversion types. TE and WR just are not as important but will be taken later.

Last year we all saw more 4 man fronts (especially 4-2 big nickel and dime schemes) than we have seen in the BB era. When BB signed D. Lewis, DT, a pure 4/3, 4/2 player, the transition to 4 man fronts solidified even more. So versatility in switching from 3 to 4 man fronts has become very important.

I think BB, given the opportunity, goes against his usual and trades up this year to select Derrick Morgan who is this years premier edge rushing DE. (22 plus a 2nd to either Oakland at #8, with an added pick, or Jacksonville at #10)

Morgan would have an immediate impact on collapsing the pocket, which is more important to BB than actual sacks. Failing that he falls back to plan B: Corey Wootton and Te'o Nesheim or Alualu who has also been in for a visit. With Wilfork, Pryor, Wright, Warren, Lewis, Brace, Grady and Morgan, BB has the horses to man the 40 front and collapse the pocket for an entire game. Put McKenzie at Mike, Mayo at Will, and Guyton at Sam and you've got a fast, versatile, run stuffing defense that can bring the heat if there's a first down pass play and put the offense back on the field.

If you doubt the 4 man front transition, just check out the D linemen BB has brought in or is bringing in or has worked out: Dan Williams, Alualu, Wootton, Brian Price, Odrick, Arthur Jones, Al Woods, Cam Thomas, etc. The evidence is right before your eyes...

 

[PATSNUTme]

JPP and Griffin are off my board. Both players present huge boom or bust potential. I would not use a 1st rounder on either no matter how they are ranked.

Griffen was on my board until I kept reading in several places that he does not seem to be dedicated to football. JPP has the rap that he is more of an athlete than a football player and does not seem to be willing to put in the work required for him to be a good NFL player.

If we had a 3rd rounder, and we could trade down to get one, we could take a flyer at Dunlap depending who else available at that time.

 

[bucky]

I'll take Carrington and Te'o-Nesheim, please. I don't know why BB would spend the highest draft picks on guys with attitude and work ethic problems, we let other teams take those guys, BB would prefer a smart but mediocre talent player who is willing to run through a wall in order to get the job done. The high-talent cases with attitude just wind up arrested and/or suspended and don't become contributors.

Agree on this all the way. JPP, to be fair, is not known to have an attitude problem. He's just a boom or bust type of player and he'd even be more of a risk as either a 34 DE or OLB prospect. Dunlap is off my board completely due to effort and DUI issues. Griffin is an interesting one though. I definitely think he can play OLB, but would only consider him if he slid to 44.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I've read that each of these players ran a 4.6 and stand in the 6'3'' to 6'6'' height and 270 lbs (or more) weight ranges. They all seem to project as an outside linebacker in a 3-4 but can be a defensive end also.

If given a choice, would New England select either one at twenty-two should they be there.

The way I understand it...


Jason Pierre-Paul - 6'5'', 270 lbs (1)
What are the knocks on him: Raw, intelligence, maturity, experience, one-year starter

Everson Griffen - 6'3'', 273 lbs (1-2)
What are the knocks on him: Underachiever, work ethnic, inconsistency, one-year starter

Carlos Dunlap - 6'6'', 277 lbs (1-2)
What are the knocks on him: Character, work ethnic, inconsistency


Of the three, Pierre-Paul is the most unlikely to slide to New England. However, it's certainly feasible that either Griffen or Dunlap could be there. Apparently, pundits would've you believe that Dunlap is the one you should avoid like the plague but he's the one that could've an impact as a rookie as oppose to the other two. That is, depending on which team he ends up on. Also, I understand that Florida has produced some good players at defensive end. The most notable being Jevon Kearse.

New England needs an impact defensive end. A player who's young with tremendous upside. The concerns you've for some of these players is you can't truly project how they'll do, they could be an immediate impact or a longterm bust. However, Dunlap's one of those players that could make sense for the Patriots for a few reasons. First, he was projected to go much higher initially than he'll likely go now. Second, the Patriots tend not to be in a position to draft a top talent (top meaning top fifteen) and have to be fortunate that someone unexpectedly fell to them like Wilfork. Here's a player who could represent a top talent on paper but won't be drafted as such. So, if you draft him, you might have a perceived top ten or fifteen player signed to a considerable less salary.

Regardless, with any of these three players, the Patriots have Belichick and that should count for something if you decide to take a chance on one of them. Especially, Dunlap...

I would take Dunlap and put him at OLB. He has the size to play the run, the pass rushing skills desired, but since he has not had a chance to play much in space, I would coach him up on that like crazy. He could play the role McGinest played and excel at it.

 

[patman52]

Edwards benefitted from the scheme and the players on the Dline in Minny.

When you have The Williams' and Jared Allen along side you your not going toget the attention that you will be getting as the #1 rusher that you see him on the Pats. He never played LB either in college or the pros and will take a minimum of 5 mill a year to sign. With the cap most likely decreasing over this next contract you need the value that the #22 at about 1.5 mill a year brings.

 

[furley]

If Dunlap's only worthy of a second round pick at best. Then I would still consider him there.

One thing that struck me as interesting was reading how Dunlap reportedly has made a good impression during his pre-draft interviews while Pierre-Paul has been less than impressive.

That's an interesting suggestion of trading up to try to draft Derrick Morgan but I don't see New England's first round pick and a second round pick as being enough. And then there's this...

According to ex-Browns scout Daniel Jeremiah, Derrick Morgan, Joe Haden, and Eric Berry will be Cleveland's top-three considerations at No. 7 overall.

He has Haden going to the Browns at No. 7 in his latest mock draft, a pick after the Seahawks select Berry. Jeremiah worked in Cleveland last year and presumably still has ties in the organization. He believes that Morgan, a 4-3 defensive end in college, fits the Browns' profile for a 3-4 outside linebacker.

Derrick Morgan



And this...

According to NFL Network's Mike Mayock, "just about everyone in attendance" at Georgia Tech's Pro Day believed Derrick Morgan will be a 4-3 defensive end in the NFL -- not a 3-4 outside linebacker.

Morgan struggled badly when asked to drop and change direction at the Combine. He was a bit better at Monday's Pro Day, but at 6'3/266 Morgan's best fit appears to be as a base, 4-3 right or left defensive end. Mayock expects Morgan to be drafted somewhere in the top 10-20, though it appears we can cross most 3-4 clubs off the list of potential landing spots.

 

[DW Toys]

Edwards benefitted from the scheme and the players on the Dline in Minny.

When you have The Williams' and Jared Allen along side you your not going toget the attention that you will be getting as the #1 rusher that you see him on the Pats. He never played LB either in college or the pros and will take a minimum of 5 mill a year to sign. With the cap most likely decreasing over this next contract you need the value that the #22 at about 1.5 mill a year brings.

So what you are saying is Wilfork and Warren are just average and VW does not command a double Team (I understand pass and run but in the NFL you play both)? That Edwards can't play with our D Line? Who says he is going to be OLB? He is about the same weight that Green was. DE Morgan is 266lbs. DE Piere Paul is 270. Dunlap is 277 and Carrington is 285. Whomever we pick has to play well beside Wilfork and Warren. Edwards is proven. These other kids not.

I think #22 is going to cost more than $1.5m (2009 #22 was a 5 year $14.25 million contract) and then you have the proven pattern that this player will take three years to develop on NFL average. Are you saying lets Draft a guy that helps us in 2013? If that is the case you might be right. I am more concerned about 2010.

I don't understand the thought process in this Forum that the Draft is going to fill all of our holes and they are all great picks. Please explain the utmost confidence in these 21 year old kids that our 13 holes will all be filled and 2010 will be markedly better than 2009? You need some FAs and Trades to go with some sound picks. That has been my point.

Why did the Redskins go after a 32 year old QB rather than Sam Bradford et al? A proven commodity at the right price trumps a Draft pick who may or may not pan out. I am sure the Rams would have taken #4 and #37 for #1 chart or no chart.

So for paying $3m per year for an unknown commodity, you could spend $1.5m-$2m more and get a young NFL ready top level player who is in his prime. You know what Edwards can do in the NFL. No way to tell on these others. Look at Gaines Adams (RIP). He was the first round pick in 2007 and Tampa let him go to Chicago. He was just another Guy in his career.

I take Edwards and to top that I take Haynesworth perhaps at #53....both of them. Edwards in the Willie Mac role and Haynesworth as a DE.

Can't see anything better for our Defense in 2009 and they are both available. This is not one of these stupid Madden cracks. Would you say those two make our Defense better in 2010 or not?

Will Master Ordick and Master Dunlap be better at DE and OLB?

I have my opinion Cousin

DW Toys

 

[Seneschal2]

All three are not on my board for one very sound reason.

First, to employ the annual draft quote - "There's no such thing as a sure thing." Just think about that for a moment...then consider this: If you're Belichick, wouldn't you select the surest thing in round one, and not those with questions/concerns about work ethic, smarts, and proven production? IMO, round one is not where you gamble and take a chance on greatness with players who are reportedly lacking the key criteria (especially effort and consistency) -- no matter how great the need. The first pick ought to be reserved for the prospect who clearly fits the Pats profile, not a player who needs to be coached up or resurrected. Surely there's at least one player who fits the Pats MO...