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[emoney_33]

You claim that we can't tell effort by body language, etc.... yet you're making the claim that it wasn't an effort issue. How is it that you feel that we who don't think he gave 'full' effort can't make that call, but you can?

As for the followup, Moss had position in both cases. He's Randy Moss. Often, one man's great play is a result of another's less than stellar play. That's what happened with those throws.

Innocent until proven guilty. No one knows what his actual "effort" is on any play except him, same with everyone. Why not talk about Brady's effort when he underthrows someone or anyone else's effort? Because of media created reputation of Moss.

Moss may have misjudged Jammer's ability and/or distance from the ball to make the play. That doesn't mean Moss somehow played it horribly. Jammer outplayed him on a couple of underthrown balls (well 1 underthrown), WOW it's not the end of the world.

 

[emoney_33]

Your argument is now:

a.) Moss had slowed down and used his body to shield Jammer

b.) Moss, therefore, was in superior position (you don't state this, but it follows logically)

c.) Moss somehow didn't make the play despite superior position, 4 inches of height with the arm length that goes along with it, and with the easy ability to just jump for the ball.

d.) This failure to simply jump for the ball when his 'judgment' was good enough for him to adjust to the ball and shield the defender was all about judgment

So, I'm accused of using body language when I'm actually talking about specific physical actions, but you don't mind reading into Moss' mind about judgment? Interesting double standard.....

No double standard at all. I'm stating what ACTUALLY happened on the play. He COULD have jumped for it, but he usually doesn't in that situation. He probably misjudged the ball a little as well as Jammer's ability. The guy is great but not perfect.

You are claiming what exactly? He didn't feel like jumping, took the easy way out? When welker drops a pass, why? effort?

 

[Deus Irae]

Innocent until proven guilty. No one knows what his actual "effort" is on any play except him, same with everyone. Why not talk about Brady's effort when he underthrows someone or anyone else's effort? Because of media created reputation of Moss.

This isn't a court of law, so "innocent until proven guilty" is bullshyte. Furthermore, I've seen Moss play enough to decide for myself when I think he's busting his ass more, or less, than usual. I don't care what the media reputation is.

Moss may have misjudged Jammer's ability and/or distance from the ball to make the play. That doesn't mean Moss somehow played it horribly. Jammer outplayed him on a couple of underthrown balls (well 1 underthrown), WOW it's not the end of the world.

He didn't bother jumping to get the ball, and that has nothing to do with judgment of Jammer's abilities, since Jammer was clearly in position to tackle him after the catch in both instances, and the only issue in question was whether or not there would be a completion. However, if it's not the end of the world, why are you fighting for it so valiantly when I suggested we just drop it? As I said, we're not going to change one another's minds, so it's basically end of story.

 

[Deus Irae]

No double standard at all. I'm stating what ACTUALLY happened on the play. He COULD have jumped for it, but he usually doesn't in that situation. He probably misjudged the ball a little as well as Jammer's ability. The guy is great but not perfect.

You are claiming what exactly? He didn't feel like jumping, took the easy way out? When welker drops a pass, why? effort?

Now that's funny. You're stating YOUR VERSION of how you interpreted the play, nothing more. Hell, your "probably misjudge the ball" should have told you that.

And you have argued a double standard. Badly. Now enough of this silliness.

 

[emoney_33]

This isn't a court of law, so "innocent until proven guilty" is bullshyte. Furthermore, I've seen Moss play enough to decide for myself when I think he's busting his ass more, or less, than usual. I don't care what the media reputation is.




He didn't bother jumping to get the ball, and that has nothing to do with judgment of Jammer's abilities, since Jammer was clearly in position to tackle him after the catch in both instances, and the only issue in question was whether or not there would be a completion. However, if it's not the end of the world, why are you fighting for it so valiantly when I suggested we just drop it? As I said, we're not going to change one another's minds, so it's basically end of story.

You are making a ridiculous assertion that Moss isn't trying or isn't trying as hard as he did last year. Which is ridiculous. In the Bills game last year Moss played a similar throw the same way against Greer, but slowed down a little more to give more space between Greer and the ball. It ended up in him having to outstretch his arm to catch it one handed. This time he misjudged it a little so it fell too close to Jammer.

This lack of effort is just absolute bullshyte.

 

[Deus Irae]

..........................

 

[emoney_33]

Now that's funny. You're stating YOUR VERSION of how you interpreted the play, nothing more. Hell, your "probably misjudge the ball" should have told you that.

And you have argued a double standard. Badly. Now enough of this silliness.

The FACT is the ball was underthrown and Moss slowed up and the ball was landing in his arms on his outside shoulder. The FACT is Jammer put his hand in there and broke it up as it was coming into Randy's hands. I have not stated "my version" of it. I stated exactly what happened. YOU accuse Moss of lack of effort because he didn't jump? Was he supposed to go fullspeed, stop and then jump?

He has a better chance at catching it playing it like he did, slightly slowing his stride so that the ball falls into his hands in stride.

 

[Deus Irae]

The FACT is the ball was underthrown and Moss slowed up and the ball was landing in his arms on his outside shoulder. The FACT is Jammer put his hand in there and broke it up as it was coming into Randy's hands. I have not stated "my version" of it. I stated exactly what happened. YOU accuse Moss of lack of effort because he didn't jump? Was he supposed to go fullspeed, stop and then jump?

He has a better chance at catching it playing it like he did, slightly slowing his stride so that the ball falls into his hands in stride.

Moss had ALREADY SLOWED DOWN BECAUSE HE'D SEEN THE BALL WAS UNDERTHROWN and was not running full speed. You even state that yourself in the opening line of the post I'm quoting, so your argument is completely nonsensical even in the context of your own argument.

 

[emoney_33]

Moss had ALREADY SLOWED DOWN BECAUSE HE'D SEEN THE BALL WAS UNDERTHROWN and was not running full speed. You even state that yourself in the opening line of the post I'm quoting, so your argument is completely nonsensical even in the context of your own argument.

Slowed down without breaking stride so that he can still catch it in stride... how does that do anything to my argument?

His momentum is still going forward, you want him to jump backwards

 

[PatsFaninAZ]

I kind of thought this thread was silly when it attempted to explain how zero hits or hurries on the QB wasn't really a bad thing -- a rather sobering stat I must say. Now, we're doing a Zapruder frame-by-frame analysis on Randy Moss plays to gauge his intent?

Seven days between games is too many.

 

[Deus Irae]

I kind of thought this thread was silly when it attempted to explain how zero hits or hurries on the QB wasn't really a bad thing -- a rather sobering stat I must say. Now, we're doing a Zapruder frame-by-frame analysis on Randy Moss plays to gauge his intent?

Seven days between games is too many.

If only we had a grassy knoll

 

[Deus Irae]

Slowed down without breaking stride so that he can still catch it in stride... how does that do anything to my argument?

His momentum is still going forward, you want him to jump backwards

1.) Your argument in that post was "full speed", and that term was used to deride my argument, so stop acting as if I'm wrong to point out the clear error in your argument. It's easy to jump from a non-full speed situation.

2.) Take up your argument with others since, as I told you, it's not just me:

Well even different players have different opinions. Fred Smerlas and Christian Fauria who are a tad more removed from the immediate than Troy said on Sunday night he has to fight to catch those balls and on the SLIGHT underthrow he has to use his body to box the defender. Stealth may be Randy's game but he's waving for the damn ball and once it's in his mitts he better hang on to it. This isn't something in a vacuum either - been the case since the end of last regular season. His only pass from Brady this season he freakin' fumbled...and after holding the ball a tad too long for his own health to get it to Moss Tommy hobbled off the field for the last time this season knowing that.

I caught part of Freddie's commentary too and that's exactly what he said about Moss and those catches. Not to dish Randy but he's had some difficulties that actually began to come into question at the end of last season.

Anyway,Sunday BB was a guest on Totally Patriots. One of the kids asked him who was the speediest player. Without hesitation BB said Randy Moss.

 

[emoney_33]

1.) Your argument in that post was "full speed", and that term was used to deride my argument, so stop acting as if I'm wrong to point out the clear error in your argument. It's easy to jump from a non-full speed situation.

2.) Take up your argument with others since, as I told you, it's not just me:

When the heck did I ever argue "full speed"? You must have misread one of my posts. Full effort yes, full speed? that's impossible because the ball would have dropped 20 yards behind him.

My only argument is against people saying he is "slacking" effort wise. He, like everyone else, has things to work on and improve upon each and every game.

 

[dhamz]

All I will say is I saw Reggie Wayne play an underthrown deep pass on Sunday the exact way Randy Moss did - he slowed, tried to shield the defender with his body, and kept his hands down until the final second. The only difference between what he and Moss did was the defender missed the ball when he swatted at it. If that pass was knocked away I doubt you would have heard anyone accuse Wayne of dogging it.

 

[Deus Irae]

When the heck did I ever argue "full speed"? You must have misread one of my posts. Full effort yes, full speed? that's impossible because the ball would have dropped 20 yards behind him.

My only argument is against people saying he is "slacking" effort wise. He, like everyone else, has things to work on and improve upon each and every game.

Ok, now you're arguing with your own posts again:

The FACT is the ball was underthrown and Moss slowed up and the ball was landing in his arms on his outside shoulder. The FACT is Jammer put his hand in there and broke it up as it was coming into Randy's hands. I have not stated "my version" of it. I stated exactly what happened. YOU accuse Moss of lack of effort because he didn't jump? Was he supposed to go fullspeed, stop and then jump?

He has a better chance at catching it playing it like he did, slightly slowing his stride so that the ball falls into his hands in stride.

Can we now end this nonsense, since you're arguing against your own arguments?

 

[PromisedLand]

Another patsfans poster who doesn't watch much football. That's embarassing.

It happens every week to great HC's for a variety of reasons. Most often it's personnel/matchup related. There is a reason some teams regardless of record or accolades always struggle against another - even at time when that other is perceived as an abyssmal failure. It's called the parity driven salary cap NFL. There is lots of talent on every team in the league. Some just have a little more or less than others or coach it a little better or worse or spread their cap a little differently or get lucky/unlucky in a brutal injury riddled sport which results in an effect known as any given Sunday. We've seen a lot of that effect across the league this season which is why only 1 team remains undefeated through week 6 and no one expects it to remain that way much longer nor do they expect what BB did with the 2007 Patriots team to be eclipsed in our lifetime.

Every week 32 teams answer the bell regardless of what has transpired in their individual or collective personal or professional lives since week 1. 16 walk away winners and 16 walk away losers. We happen to have lost the reigning league MVP who in his absence is proving to be just that and it has had a ripple effect on this 2008 version of the NEP. Makes us a very different team to face and makes it that much easier for other teams to take shots or chances against than has been the case for the last several seasons. Colts have gone through an abbreviated version of the same effect this month. The Cowboys are about to get a taste of that too. The object is to navigate that stretch as best you can. The problem for us is it will be a 16 game stretch so everyone on our dance card will continue to come guns blazing. That we are 3-2 through the first 5 games is a testament to this team and this HC and the system. Lesser entities would have curled up in the fetal position and tanked their season, probably behind a flailing Daunte Culpepper... If we manage 3-2 over the next 5 weeks it will be further testament to the organization. And then anything approaching a split down the stretch will be one hell of a season under the circumstances.

The people who can't appreciate that are the blowhard fanboys who live to arrogantly thump thier chests over this teams accomplishments and tear it a new one any time they are deprived of that opportunity to which they've become accustomed. My only advice to them is to grow the f' up.

You might try being more respectful to your fellow posters - not just me, but in general. I may not spend 12 hours after every game reviewing every play on my DVR in slo-mo, but I've watched a hell of a lot of football - just ask my wife - and I've been doing it for decades. So stuff it.

 

[emoney_33]

Ok, now you're arguing with your own posts again:



Can we now end this nonsense, since you're arguing against your own arguments?

How about you clarify yourself, because what you quoted did not contradict or argue against each other at all. What are YOU claiming now? YOU want him to go fullspeed, stop on a dime, and jump for the ball? Read dhamz post above about Reggie Wayne.

I don't understand what you are saying now, you are quoting me and accusing me of arguing against myself when I have not done that. I have always claimed Moss played it fine, although he MIGHT have misjudged the ball or Jammer a little bit.

Seriously Deus, take some time to read my points. I have not argued against myself once.

 

[Deus Irae]

How about you clarify yourself, because what you quoted did not contradict or argue against each other at all. What are YOU claiming now? YOU want him to go fullspeed, stop on a dime, and jump for the ball? Read dhamz post above about Reggie Wayne.

I don't understand what you are saying now, you are quoting me and accusing me of arguing against myself when I have not done that. I have always claimed Moss played it fine, although he MIGHT have misjudged the ball or Jammer a little bit.

Seriously Deus, take some time to read my points. I have not argued against myself once.

Yes, you have and, since you can't even admit that, I'm done here. It's just useless arguing with someone who's arguing against his own posts and can't even admit that much.

 

[emoney_33]

Yes, you have and, since you can't even admit that, I'm done here. It's just useless arguing with someone who's arguing against his own posts and can't even admit that much.

EXPLAIN HOW THE HECK I AM ARGUING AGAINST MY OWN POSTS??


Seriously Deus, one of us is misreading something here. What exactly have I said that is contradictory?

I asked if you expect him to run fullspeed, stop on a dime, wait and jump for the ball. Are you equating speed and effort?

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Guys, get a room. Please.