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Wilfork Named in Miami Booster Scandal (Well-Corroborated Allegations)


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Re: Wilfork named in Miami Mess

When did schools start forbidding students to work?????????

When you are a "student athlete". I think the NCAA limits you to 20 hrs per week during the summer.
 
Re: Wilfork named in Miami Mess

I see it a little differently, but given the graduation rate of many Division I athletes, I don't view players taking money as that egregious. The university uses them to rake in money through sports, but does little to see that they finish a course of study. You do have student-athletes, but many of these guys are more athlete than they are student (even if they lack a shot at the pros). I don't believe Vince earned a degree at Miami as he left after his junior year, so if he got paid I wouldn't fault him for that.

As I've said numerous times in this thread, schools lose money on sports. They rake in nothing.

the grad rate for athletes is higher than for regular students, which isn't a surprise when you consider how students struggle to pay for school.

The grad rate for D1 football is pretty respectable at 60%+.
 
Re: Wilfork named in Miami Mess

When did schools start forbidding students to work?????????

I was referring to students with full rides, academic scholarships, fellowships, assistantships, etc. The schools dole out that money as part of a contract forbidding work during the school year. The reasoning is that the ride is provided to allow stellar students to devote themselves to their academic life.
 
Love Big Vince. The NCAA is a travesty at this point. They need to start paying these kids as they are semi-pros, not college students.

If they were semi-pros, their market value would be pretty minimal. Semi-pro football? Who would watch?
 
If they were semi-pros, their market value would be pretty minimal. Semi-pro football? Who would watch?

Forgive my wording. My point is that these kids are not students in the traditional sense, i.e., going to classes, etc. They bring in a ton of money to these schools and need to be somewhat compensated for it. Better it be overt and legal than the way it is now. These kids are going to get money for their talent one way or another.
 
Forgive my wording. My point is that these kids are not students in the traditional sense, i.e., going to classes, etc. They bring in a ton of money to these schools and need to be somewhat compensated for it. Better it be overt and legal than the way it is now. These kids are going to get money for their talent one way or another.

They don't bring in a ton of money. Schools by and large lose huge amounts on sports.
 
They don't bring in a ton of money. Schools by and large lose huge amounts on sports.

I'm not doubting you but why the big deal if they lose money? Why do schools care so much about such a losing proposition?
 
Re: Wilfork named in Miami Mess

And you can make all the jokes you want about swimming pool maintenance, but you'll be whistling a different tune when you get a tough algae colony.

My ex-girlfriend tried that excuse.
 
I'm not doubting you but why the big deal if they lose money? Why do schools care so much about such a losing proposition?

Care so much? Not sure what you mean by that.

The AD budget even at UTexas is 100 million while the school budget is in the billions so we're not talking major operations here.

But, sports are also political hot potatoes especially down south. When Texas A&Ms football team had an unexpected $18 million loss a couple years ago, the President of A&M asked the AD to make up the difference. He went to the Texas governor instead (Rick Perry) and had the President fired.

So, it's a mix of politics, alumni, etc. I don't think the schools would care one way or another if sports disappeared tomorrow. The alumni and politicians would. So, they are not important and very important at the same time.

Mind you, I'm not against the schools losing some money on sports. Even the Ivy leagues lose money on sports. But $30-40 million a year is ridiculous especially now that school budgets are being slashed.
 
By the way, this is the database to see what schools spend on sports:

USA TODAY database: What NCAA schools spend on athletics - USATODAY.com

You have to account for direct and indirect institutional support as well as guarantees and student fees to see how they mess with the accounting. All that money comes from the schools, not athletics. As well, debt service on bonds for stadiums etc. is not included in the financials because athletic departments don't issue bonds.
 
I'm not doubting you but why the big deal if they lose money? Why do schools care so much about such a losing proposition?

While looking at the straight line economics sports apparently "lose" money for the universities themselves, I imagine they do attract more paying students, boosters and alumni donations in general, which makes them "profitable" to the school's bottom line. Otherwise, as you said, why would schools continue to support such loser programs?

U of Miami is on the map because of its football program, whether on paper it "makes" money for them or not.
 
Re: Wilfork named in Miami Mess

As I've said numerous times in this thread, schools lose money on sports. They rake in nothing.

the grad rate for athletes is higher than for regular students, which isn't a surprise when you consider how students struggle to pay for school.

The grad rate for D1 football is pretty respectable at 60%+.

Maybe at some smaller schools, but I read an article the other day that said the Miami football program brought in 11 million dollars in profit. Overall Miami profited 8 million from their sports program. Obviously the numbers mean they lost 3 million combined from all sports not called football.
 
Larger Division 1 teams absolutely make money. The TV rights are where the money is. Get your team on TV a few times and the money rolls in. Don't understimate the ticket sales/gear either.

The average ticket price for someone like OSU is 45.00. Their stadium holds over 100,000 people and sells out each well. Now add consession sales, gear, etc. and you're talking about 5 million a game just in ticket sales. Get on National TV and get another 7 -8 million dollars. Add a few more million for a major bowl game.

Big schools do not lose money.
 
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Larger Division 1 teams absolutely make money. The TV rights are where the money is. Get your team on TV a few times and the money rolls in. Don't understimate the ticket sales/gear either.

The average ticket price for someone like OSU is 45.00. Their stadium holds over 100,000 people and sells out each well. Now add consession sales, gear, etc. and you're talking about 5 million a game just in ticket sales. Get on National TV and get another 7 -8 million dollars. Add a few more million for a major bowl game.

Big schools do not lose money.

Yep. I go to OSU so I get student discount :D. I pay for 5 tickets and each ticket is around 21 bucks. That stadium always sells out. Plus I think for the past 5 years, OSU and Texas programs have brought in above 100m each year with Tex and OSU usually switching between the No. 1 and No. 2 spot in those years (money brought in).

In fairness, money brought in by these programs are used to fund other non profit making sports like hockey, lacrosse, women's basketball, fencing, shooting etc and the money is spent for their scholarships.
 
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While looking at the straight line economics sports apparently "lose" money for the universities themselves, I imagine they do attract more paying students, boosters and alumni donations in general, which makes them "profitable" to the school's bottom line. Otherwise, as you said, why would schools continue to support such loser programs?

U of Miami is on the map because of its football program, whether on paper it "makes" money for them or not.

Alumni donations are counted in that USA Today ledger as athletics income, to the tune of $20 million.

Some have argued in the past that, as with the Longhorn foundation, donors are not totally aware that they are contributing to football when they contribute. The longhorns bring in lots of donations, but surveys have shown that 30% of donors assumed they were contributing to the school, and not football. As well, all royalties from school-branded apparel are counted as athletics income. If you deducted the amount of royalties made by non-sports schools such as, say, NYU, from the income made by sports schools on royalties, that's another example of income that might be better attributed to academics than athletics. It gets a whole lot more complicated when you factor in actual cost of attendance per student which is 3x high than tuition at most schools. ADs only reimburse for tuition, not actual cost.

As for your larger argument, it cuts both ways. Some schools have undoubtedly profited from sports in the ways you mention, more PR. Boston College and Notre Dame, for instance. Their clone school Georgetown however hardly needed the basketball team to achieve notoriety as it has always been a sought-after school probably because it's in DC. But for every Miami and BC, there are many other schools looking to hit the bigtime and expand PR that fall flat on their face. Sports economist Andrew Zimbalist thinks the success stories are about 10%. Even worse, he believes that some schools develop a "loser's" reputation that dissuades students from attending what would otherwise be a school with fine academics. Think Rutgers.

I would also point out that many highly regarded schools that draw lots of applications do not have sports.

Look at the Cal-System. Lots of schools without sports that draw just as many student applications as UCLA. Cal-San Diego, Ca-Santa Barbara. U. Chicago, NYU, hell kids do not go to Boston U. for the sports. I can guarantee you that. G. Washington, the SUNY's, UMass, all these schools have seen huge increases in applications.
 
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Re: Wilfork named in Miami Mess

Maybe at some smaller schools, but I read an article the other day that said the Miami football program brought in 11 million dollars in profit. Overall Miami profited 8 million from their sports program. Obviously the numbers mean they lost 3 million combined from all sports not called football.

I can't speak for Miami because they are a private school and my link only shows public school reports to the federal gov't.

But, since I generally see these quotes made about a lot of other schools and these reports totally diverge from the official balance sheet, I am very suspicious, to say the least. That $11 million tells us nothing about student fees, direct institutional support, etc. In other words, they can report anything unofficially. You need to look at the numbers.

The Miami numbers are suspect as well because they supposedly only lost $3 million on other sports? When they're in a conference that requires Olympic sports? I doubt it. Even small schools lose tens of millions. Hard to believe Miami somehow is making that much money on sports without fans.

If you backout student fees and direct academic support, only 13 of 130 odd d1 football schools make a profit. And of those 13, still less do when you backout debt service for stadiums and state-of-the-art locker rooms, etc.
 
Yep. I go to OSU so I get student discount :D. I pay for 5 tickets and each ticket is around 21 bucks. That stadium always sells out. Plus I think for the past 5 years, OSU and Texas programs have brought in above 100m each year with Tex and OSU usually switching between the No. 1 and No. 2 spot in those years (money brought in).

In fairness, money brought in by these programs are used to fund other non profit making sports like hockey, lacrosse, women's basketball, fencing, shooting etc and the money is spent for their scholarships.

Yes, this is it precisely. But they have to take that money and use it on sports per federal law. Title 9.

If there weren't a federal law, this would be an entirely different discussion.

I would point out, however, that you could look at the schools that recently joined D1 to see how their cost quadrupled after joining. Take U Buffalo. It's budget was 5 or 6 million for all sports. Now they're in the 20-30 million range. One could easily argue that if they didn't join D1 football, they'd be in the sub 10 million range with other 1-AA schools like Rhode Island.

I think the same dynamic applies. Once you join D1, your expenses rise exponentially.
 
I'm not doubting you but why the big deal if they lose money? Why do schools care so much about such a losing proposition?

Athletics are expected as part of the college experience. Very few sports in any program make money. It's factored into expenses.
 
Yes, this is it precisely. But they have to take that money and use it on sports per federal law. Title 9.

If there weren't a federal law, this would be an entirely different discussion.

I would point out, however, that you could look at the schools that recently joined D1 to see how their cost quadrupled after joining. Take U Buffalo. It's budget was 5 or 6 million for all sports. Now they're in the 20-30 million range. One could easily argue that if they didn't join D1 football, they'd be in the sub 10 million range with other 1-AA schools like Rhode Island.

I think the same dynamic applies. Once you join D1, your expenses rise exponentially.

What federal law is that? There's no law as far as I know. I tried looking it up and couldn't find one at all. In fact, I'm 99% sure that foot ball income generated from my school paid for a dorm.
 
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