Welker:Toward the end in NE, BB got on him in a way he never had before

[Bruins29]

I could give 2 $hits about WW as he no longer plays for the Patriots.

Exactly. I can't remember the last training camp where there were 4 rookie pass catchers who were performing as well as this. Why would anyone waste brain cells on WW? Lets see if these new guys can continue their momentum into PS and RS.

 

[fnordcircle]

I can name 100 guys we've missed less than we will Welker. How about Ochocinco? Do you think you'll miss his 15 catches as much as Wes' 118?

Welker will have a productive season in Denver this year, barring injury. Answer this: do you think any current receiver on the Patriots will have as many receptions as Wes Welker will have for the Broncos in 2013?

I don't.

Actually considering that Denver has more established receiving options it's very likely to me that Brady might lean on Amendola more than Manning leans on Wes and that a healthy Amendola gets a Welker-like number of catches.

That'd be a bad thing, though. I think Wes, like Moss, represented one of the things that has changed about Brady since 2007 and not for the better.

Back in the days of winning Super Bowls Brady's calling card was getting 5, 6 or 7 guys 4-5 catches each. Not leaning on one guy game in and game out like he did with Wes. I'm really hoping rather than going to the Amendola well over and over (which leaves us vulnerable when a team finds a scheme that negates him like both of our most recent Super Bowl losses) that we see Amendola get 80 catches, Gronk get 75, our X and Z WRs get 40-50, Vereen get 50, TE2 get 40 and a backup WR or two get 30-40.

**** the stats, give me the victories that come from better ball distribution.

 

[Kontradiction]

Actually considering that Denver has more established receiving options it's very likely to me that Brady might lean on Amendola more than Manning leans on Wes and that a healthy Amendola gets a Welker-like number of catches.

That'd be a bad thing, though. I think Wes, like Moss, represented one of the things that has changed about Brady since 2007 and not for the better.

Back in the days of winning Super Bowls Brady's calling card was getting 5, 6 or 7 guys 4-5 catches each. Not leaning on one guy game in and game out like he did with Wes. I'm really hoping rather than going to the Amendola well over and over (which leaves us vulnerable when a team finds a scheme that negates him like both of our most recent Super Bowl losses) that we see Amendola get 80 catches, Gronk get 75, our X and Z WRs get 40-50, Vereen get 50, TE2 get 40 and a backup WR or two get 30-40.

**** the stats, give me the victories that come from better ball distribution.

The fact that Brady has had to break all these guys in with a new offense at the same time might breed more ball distribution. Of course, that depends on whether or not the rookies can play when the real season starts.

 

[PatsDeb]

You don't read that transaction with Welker as BB playing the cold, calculating assessor of player value who will not pay more than a player is worth and gives nothing to a player's history? I still suspect BB's fear was Welker, a small, quick player who weathered a great deal of abuse would lose a step at his age, whether this year or next, at which point he would have a small slot receiver that could not get open with a relatively big price tag.

Welker has been huge for the Pats, and I will never hate on the guy because he went to Denver. He put his body on the line repeatedly, and made tons of clutch 3rd down catches with the Pats over the years. People crying about his decision to leave, who forget all the damage he took for the Pats catching passes in the middle of the field conveniently forget what might have been with all the successes in the past years if he was not there. Look at "alligator arms" Joey Galloway if you believe all receivers can do that with the Pats. I wish him well, and only time will tell if the Pats' decision not to pay him was a good decision or a bad decision.

Welker is also a comedian, so I am not convinced he was not making some of those comments in jest. His reference to a more difficult year may be no more than a statement that BB was on him more because he made more mistakes - not saying he didn't deserve it, but rather that the season did not go as well as he had hoped, and he heard about it.

I do read it that way too (I incorporated it into my "time to move in another direction" reason, but didn't make that clear). But I think the other 2 reasons went into it too (drops [which may also be part of the "maybe he's hitting a wall" thinking of BB] and to a lesser extent, attitude). Whatever the reasons, we'll never hear for sure and I hope the decision doesn't burn us.

I was beside myself when they let Welker go, but as usual, time has smoothed things out for me (that and reports that Brady is doing well with his new receivers) and I am ready to move on to a new season. I am excited to see if the Pats can get the down field game going.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Belichick had a lot more to criticize as Welker got older. Certainly the Patriots leaned on him, as the other receivers got worse, while BB was rebuilding other squads, needing more immediate attention.

Coaches coach and players play. When they screw up a good Coach corrects them. Nothing new here.

But his drop rate doubled over the years, until it ranked among the worst in the league, and not very good for a dependable receiver.

 

[MassPats38]

I do read it that way too (I incorporated it into my "time to move in another direction" reason, but didn't make that clear). But I think the other 2 reasons went into it too (drops [which may also be part of the "maybe he's hitting a wall" thinking of BB] and to a lesser extent, attitude). Whatever the reasons, we'll never hear for sure and I hope the decision doesn't burn us.

I was beside myself when they let Welker go, but as usual, time has smoothed things out for me (that and reports that Brady is doing well with his new receivers) and I am ready to move on to a new season. I am excited to see if the Pats can get the down field game going.

You were clear. I just wanted to see if you believed it was more that factor than the other stated reasons.

I was not happy to see him go, as he was an easy guy to cheer for and was a Troy Brown-type player. I will still cheer for the guy, and hope he enjoys a few more productive years in the NFL. However, I now hope he flops miserably in the games against the Pats, and cannot do enough to lead the Donkeys to greater glory in the post-season.

 

[pao]

I trade them all in for just one catch in a certain game.

Of course that's unrealistic as all of the other catches led to that game. Dude deserves props for his time here.

 

[Claremonster]

here we go......

EDIT:It Is What It Is » Wes Welker: Last days with Bill Belichick were ?just kind of hard?

Like most of the big games that he choked on...I think Welker should drop it.

 

[Demosthenes]

Well, the fact that Manning won a Super Bowl by targeting his slot receivers and tight ends, for one.

Manning won a SB by targeting slot receivers working underneath across the middle ? I'm all for learning new things, care to elaborate a bit on this ?

 

[Bruins29]

I was not happy to see him go, as he was an easy guy to cheer for and was a Troy Brown-type player. .

WW is a great player. leader, and a quality person. However while you said TB like (and they were certainly both awesome slot guys) TB was head and shoulders above WW in several categories including, off the field, versatility, and clutchness and probably ego too.

 

[Kontradiction]

Manning won a SB by targeting slot receivers working underneath across the middle ? I'm all for learning new things, care to elaborate a bit on this ?

Sure. One of the things that hurt Manning in 2003 and 2004 against the Patriots was that he was too stubborn to not "play his game", particularly against a great defense and in the cold and snow. He would continually try to go downfield against us even though it simply wasn't there. In the 2006 AFCCG, he lit us up using primarily Dallas Clark. One could argue that was because Alexander was covering Clark instead of Rodney, who was sitting at home watching the game, but the fact stands that his possession receivers, particularly Clark, killed us in that game. Manning was consistently going to that area of the field. Clark had 6 rec. for 137 yards in that game. In Super Bowl XLI he had the second most receptions on the team. Addai had 10 and he was roughly patrolling the same area of the field that Clark was.

Some more stats for Manning's slot receivers since then...

2007: Clark - 58 rec., 616 yds, 11 TD's; Gonzalez - 37 rec., 576 yds., 3 TD's; Noteworthy - Clark was the team's second leading receiver, behind Reggie Wayne.

2008: Clark - 77 rec., 848 yds., 6 TD's; Gonzalez - 57 rec., 664 yds., 4 TD's; Noteworthy - Clark was once again the team's second leading receiver, Gonzalez was the third.

2009: Clark - 100 rec., 1,106 yds., 10 TD's; Collie - 60 rec., 676 yds., 7 TD's; Noteworthy - Clark was the team's second leading receiver, Collie was the 4th.

2010: Clark - 37 rec., 347 yds., 3 TD's; Collie - 58 rec., 649 yds., 8 TD's; Noteworthy - Clark only played in 6 games while Collie played in 9, starting 6. Clark was replaced by Tamme, who logged 67/631/4, and Collie was replaced by Blair White, who logged 36/355/5.

2011: Lost season.

2012: Stokley - 45 rec., 544 yds., 5 TD's; Noteworthy - Stokley was very old.

As you can see, since the playoff victory over the Pats in 2006, Manning has regularly used his slot receivers. From last season to this season, he's seen a substantial upgrade at that position. I'd be shocked if he doesn't look Welker's way early and often.

 

[fnordcircle]

WW is a great player. leader, and a quality person. However while you said TB like (and they were certainly both awesome slot guys) TB was head and shoulders above WW in several categories including, off the field, versatility, and clutchness and probably ego too.

This revisionist history RE: Welker is getting out of hand.

Can't we just say that the dude was awesome and probably still is even if he no longer wears a Pats jersey? And then hope that Amendola is better?

I loved Troy Brown and he gave a few quality years before the end but Wes's production was amazing and there's a stronger argument that he's the greatest Patriot receiver of all-time than Troy has. It's not even close.

 

[Demosthenes]

Sure. One of the things that hurt Manning in 2003 and 2004 against the Patriots was that he was too stubborn to not "play his game", particularly against a great defense and in the cold and snow. He would continually try to go downfield against us even though it simply wasn't there. In the 2006 AFCCG, he lit us up using primarily Dallas Clark. One could argue that was because Alexander was covering Clark instead of Rodney, who was sitting at home watching the game, but the fact stands that his possession receivers, particularly Clark, killed us in that game. Manning was consistently going to that area of the field. Clark had 6 rec. for 137 yards in that game. In Super Bowl XLI he had the second most receptions on the team. Addai had 10 and he was roughly patrolling the same area of the field that Clark was.

Some more stats for Manning's slot receivers since then...

2007: Clark - 58 rec., 616 yds, 11 TD's; Gonzalez - 37 rec., 576 yds., 3 TD's; Noteworthy - Clark was the team's second leading receiver, behind Reggie Wayne.

2008: Clark - 77 rec., 848 yds., 6 TD's; Gonzalez - 57 rec., 664 yds., 4 TD's; Noteworthy - Clark was once again the team's second leading receiver, Gonzalez was the third.

2009: Clark - 100 rec., 1,106 yds., 10 TD's; Collie - 60 rec., 676 yds., 7 TD's; Noteworthy - Clark was the team's second leading receiver, Collie was the 4th.

2010: Clark - 37 rec., 347 yds., 3 TD's; Collie - 58 rec., 649 yds., 8 TD's; Noteworthy - Clark only played in 6 games while Collie played in 9, starting 6. Clark was replaced by Tamme, who logged 67/631/4, and Collie was replaced by Blair White, who logged 36/355/5.

2011: Lost season.

2012: Stokley - 45 rec., 544 yds., 5 TD's; Noteworthy - Stokley was very old.

As you can see, since the playoff victory over the Pats in 2006, Manning has regularly used his slot receivers. From last season to this season, he's seen a substantial upgrade at that position. I'd be shocked if he doesn't look Welker's way early and often.

Thanks. I guess my disagreement would be that Clark was his 6'3" TE, which isn't the position that Welker would be playing. Stokely, Gonzalez and Collie were actual slot receivers and looking at the numbers you posted, they were in the 40 - 60 reception range and between 500 - 700 yds.

That's not a production level to sneer at, to be sure, but that's a far cry from the numbers that Welker put up with Brady. That was kind of my point. I don't believe that having an even better slot receiver is going to change the way Peyton's offense runs.


EDIT:

Would add that I'm not playing semantics here or quibbling. A very specific question was asked about Welker's production with Manning and here was my reply:

I don't think Welker will have anywhere near the production with Manning that he had with Brady and the Pats because Peyton never has targeted the slot receiver nearly as often, and I don't think he's about to change the offense in order to do so.

 

[Kontradiction]

Thanks. I guess my disagreement would be that Clark was his 6'3" TE, which isn't the position that Welker would be playing. Stokely, Gonzalez and Collie were actual slot receivers and looking at the numbers you posted, they were in the 40 - 60 reception range and between 500 - 700 yds.

That's not a production level to sneer at, to be sure, but that's a far cry from the numbers that Welker put up with Brady. That was kind of my point. I don't believe that having an even better slot receiver is going to change the way Peyton's offense runs.

Clark lined up in the slot on the vast majority of his snaps for the Colts. He was essentially an H-Back for them. Further, Welker is an improvement from Stokley (who, prior to last season, had not played in some time), Gonzalez (who was a rookie, then injured in his second year with the team and never recovered), and Collie (who was a rookie, then had an earthquake in his head in his second year).

 

[Demosthenes]

Clark lined up in the slot on the vast majority of his snaps for the Colts. He was essentially an H-Back for them. Further, Welker is an improvement from Stokley (who, prior to last season, had not played in some time), Gonzalez (who was a rookie, then injured in his second year with the team and never recovered), and Collie (who was a rookie, then had an earthquake in his head in his second year).

Let's cut to the chase. From 2007 - 2012, minus "down year" of 2007, Welker avg'ed 117.2 receptions and 1322.2 yds per season.

In Peyton Manning's offense, do you believe that he's going to have anywhere near that production ?

I don't. I think he'll be under 100 rec and 1000 yds.

 

[Kontradiction]

Let's cut to the chase. From 2007 - 2012, minus "down year" of 2007, Welker avg'ed 117.2 receptions and 1322.2 yds per season.

In Peyton Manning's offense, do you believe that he's going to have anywhere near that production ?

I don't. I think he'll be under 100 rec and 1000 yds.

I already answered that question earlier in the thread. Again, it would be no. He has to share balls with two guys (Decker, Thomas) that can threaten every level of the field, but particularly deep. In NE, from 2010-2012 he didn't have that to share balls with. It was Welker, then everyone else after that in the passing offense.

Not sure about your claim that he'll have under 1,000 yards though. I like Montee Ball as a fit in that offense, but I can see their offense being VERY pass happy.

 

[Demosthenes]

I already answered that question earlier in the thread. Again, it would be no. He has to share balls with two guys (Decker, Thomas) that can threaten every level of the field, but particularly deep. In NE, from 2010-2012 he didn't have that to share balls with. It was Welker, then everyone else after that in the passing offense.

Not sure about your claim that he'll have under 1,000 yards though. I like Montee Ball as a fit in that offense, but I can see their offense being VERY pass happy.

Fair enough. I definitely agree about Decker and Thomas getting a lot of looks. As for the 1000 yards, I still see a big difference between Welker and Clark. I don't think they are comparable roles. Clark would have been more like Ahern. He's 6'3" and would work down the field. Welker is 5'9".

The biggest thing here is that I don't see Manning changing. He is what he is and he likes what he likes. If you get him out of his comfort zone, he has issues. Brady is more much flexible and adaptable. He could run/operate a downfield passing offense one year, then the next, switch to a short game working across the center of the field. I don't think Manning can do that.

 

[Kontradiction]

Fair enough. I definitely agree about Decker and Thomas getting a lot of looks. As for the 1000 yards, I still see a big difference between Welker and Clark. I don't think they are comparable roles. Clark would have been more like Ahern. He's 6'3" and would work down the field. Welker is 5'9".

Their size is irrelevant. Their roles were similar. Clark lined up in the slot and patrolled the same areas of the field that Welker did when he was with the Pats, and will when he's with the Broncos.

The biggest thing here is that I don't see Manning changing. He is what he is and he likes what he likes. If you get him out of his comfort zone, he has issues. Brady is more much flexible and adaptable. He could run/operate a downfield passing offense one year, then the next, switch to a short game working across the center of the field. I don't think Manning can do that.

Agree with your take on Manning.

 

[Bruins29]

This revisionist history RE: Welker is getting out of hand.

Can't we just say that the dude was awesome and probably still is even if he no longer wears a Pats jersey? And then hope that Amendola is better?

I loved Troy Brown and he gave a few quality years before the end but Wes's production was amazing and there's a stronger argument that he's the greatest Patriot receiver of all-time than Troy has. It's not even close.

I agree. As pure WRs sure WW over TB. As football players and everything else its TB and its not even close. Troy had more than a few quality years here. I know its before some posters time but that Troy Brown guy does have 3 SB rings.

And the problem with everyone here and WW is that WW is not here anymore because of the "everything else"

 

[MassPats38]

WW is a great player. leader, and a quality person. However while you said TB like (and they were certainly both awesome slot guys) TB was head and shoulders above WW in several categories including, off the field, versatility, and clutchness and probably ego too.

By saying Troy Brown-like, I mean the "little engine that could" that exceeded expectations and was committed to the Pats as a team while playing in New England. A player, like Tom Brady, that earned everything he was given in the NFL, because he was not the rookie heir apparent and fought for and earned a place in the NFL despite teams passing him over.

You cannot compare Welker and Brown because they played on very different Patriots teams with very different issues. Every athlete has an ego (not sure how you can compare athletes there, absent "get the ball to me" even when it is detrimental to the team) as competitors want to win and want the ball, metaphorically or literally, with the game on the line. While Troy Brown played defense as a WR, Welker, to my knowledge, was never asked to assume that role. Welker was about as versatile as they come, so I am not sure where that basis for comparison arises.

Team players do what they are asked to do by the coach, and do so without complaint. Brown is soft-spoken, Welker is an extrovert and a comedian. There is neither intrinsically wrong with either. I don't know how you compare "off the field."

I don't think you can compare them as to how much they meant to the Pats, as both were a huge part of Patriots' success within their respective eras.