That win vs NYJ was #500 in team history

[Actual Pats Fan]

He's not that far off. Lombardi had one of the great dynasties, winning 5 in 7 years and losing in the championship in the 8th year (1960- first year). BUT from that point on in 1967, the Packers went 30 years of mediocrity, winning 10 games only twice in those 30 years (1967-97) and lived on the laurels of the Lombardi era..... Since then, they won 2 Super Bowls, one with Favre (Desmond Howard) and one w Rodgers... Nothing special there.. Their dynasty was 50 plus years ago.....
Cowboys were great 25 years ago, Raiders 30 years ago.....Steelers 40 years ago....49ers,30 years ago....

Green Bay was accurately described as "The Siberia of Football" from 1945-1958.

Local and national media's depiction of the Patriots as a 'laughingstock' and 'embarrassment' has no basis in reality. Even old Schaefer/Sullivan/Foxboro Stadium held well over 60,000, and was banged out often in the 70's and 80's.

And how do all these teams look today?

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Doug Flutie was the best quarterback of his generation? There must be more context. Do you mean of what the Patriots had in their stable at that time?

Well, let's see who's better...Marino...um...Favre,...Aikman? Young?

Flutie got to play one playoff game, not counting being thrown to the wolves by the Bears, and he did pretty well, a 90 rating. In 1988 before his prime, and in 1999 after it, he got the rug pulled out from under him by the head coach at the very end of those seasons. So, we'll never know.

Except that he could have spent his prime right here, with some pretty good players.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

?

Also there's a cultural thing there. The midwest if much more forgiving for bad years. The northeast you're as good as your last game never mind what you did seasons or decades past.

True. That short memory is a hindrance, certainly for the Celtics for example, who learned nothing from Red Auerbach's example.

Even for Pats fans now, who do not realize this is a golden opportunity, now, this season, to win the championship. Just as we are, with some focus and determination.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Local and national media's depiction of the Patriots as a 'laughingstock' and 'embarrassment' has no basis in reality. Even old Schaefer/Sullivan/Foxboro Stadium held well over 60,000, and was banged out often in the 70's and 80's.

When you go nearly a decade without a winning season, as the Pats did from 1967 to 1975, "laughingstock" and "embarrassment" are reasonably fair descriptors.

 

[fnordcircle]

Yes, Pats made playoffs four times in expanded, watered-down format in the nondescript 90's.

Even the Super Bowl team in '96 was inferior to their predecessors in the 70's and 80's.

lmfao

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Comparing the Packers history at that point in time to the Patriots is a bit ridiculous. They are one of the great dynasties of all time. If the Patriots fall upon hard times and in 30 years the Jaguars have still been sucking do you really think fans will say but you're forgetting about playing in the 96 and 17 AFCCGs? Or that fans of the Patriots won't still be calling our dynasty the greatest ever like the Packers did at that point?

First, we have to give Robert Kraft credit. He flatly stated immediately, and repeatedly when he bought the team that he would bring a championship to New England.

Also, he worked and fought to do the right thing, in treating team employees and players right and providing the most supportive environment for winning.

And when he got the chance, he took advantage of it to keep the team here and develop the whole area.

Likely, he did not intentionally hold all the players, coaches, staff, fans, friends and families who supported the team for 33 years accountable for Billy Sullivan's shortcomings, or certainly not for Ben Dreith and Jack Tatum...but the fact is, he embraced and condoned all the denigration of the franchise prior to his purchase. He himself set the table for both future Fake-Gates, by doing exactly nothing to defend against and debunk all the anti-Patriots rhetoric which permeated local and national media-and the NFL-from 1970-1993.

Kraft likely thought, "Hey, I'm Bob Kraft, I'm the new guy, everything's different now, we've got our act together here, you [NFL] can be as proud of us as we are to be in the league, let's all get along! We're pals now!"

Um, no. Nope. Not at all. Never.

Kraft likes to attribute this to jealousy. Where's the jealousy of the Steelers? The Cowboys? The Packers? The 49ers? No. It is not jealousy. It is pure, plain and simple prejudice. Fueled by ignorance and stupidity. And whoever is running the team website fuels it too. Lifelong Patriots fans do not, in fact, like being treated as though we do not exist.

The team Wikipedia page appears to be written by a fan of some other team.

In the "Rivalries" section, the Jets are listed first. Okay. Then, the Colts. Again okay, taking into account this century especially.

Then, the Bills? They're literally just listing all the teams in our division. Yes, lots of history between the two original AFL foes. Rivalry?

And the Dolphins. Again, a division opponent. The caption fails to mention the Orange Bowl jinx, or its historic breaking in 1986. It mentions Tom Brady's struggles there, as opposed to the reality of the TEAM's struggles there, despite some big victories - before and during Brady's tenure.

Finally, the Ravens. Seriously? An expansion team, established in 1996? How many times have we played them? Ever? Total? I can make a better case for the Broncos as a "rival". Or the Steelers.

So, two years ago I updated the page myself, adding the Oakland Raiders. An original AFL foe, we first played them on October 16, 1960. This series includes some of the most seminal, important, and historic events in the history of both franchises, and the sport. With championships on the line. This remains the most bitter rivalry in our history.

It was erased within less than a year.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

When you go nearly a decade without a winning season, as the Pats did from 1967 to 1975, "laughingstock" and "embarrassment" are reasonably fair descriptors.

OK, if that's true, then

How are the teams with worse records in that seven year stretch described?

"...worse than laughingstock..."?

And, the Giants/Steelers/Packers/49ers/Cowboys/Raiders teams with multiple stretches of worse futility stretching across decades?

"...worse than embarrassment..."?


The point is that none of them ever was described as such, even though it would be true.

Technically, the injury-riddled seasons of 1974 and 1975 are 'non-winning', but do not make the cut for 'laughingstock' or 'embarrassment'.

Everyone got a lot of mileage out of Clive Rush. How many as bad or worse coaches have just the above named holier than thou franchises had, never mind all the rest of the teams in football?

The point is that the New England Patriots are not treated fairly, and more than once in the last eleven years they were punished with an undeserved competitive disadvantage.

Who knows whom we may have got with those first round draft picks.

 

[everlong]

First, we have to give Robert Kraft credit. He flatly stated immediately, and repeatedly when he bought the team that he would bring a championship to New England.

Also, he worked and fought to do the right thing, in treating team employees and players right and providing the most supportive environment for winning.

And when he got the chance, he took advantage of it to keep the team here and develop the whole area.

Likely, he did not intentionally hold all the players, coaches, staff, fans, friends and families who supported the team for 33 years accountable for Billy Sullivan's shortcomings, or certainly not for Ben Dreith and Jack Tatum...but the fact is, he embraced and condoned all the denigration of the franchise prior to his purchase. He himself set the table for both future Fake-Gates, by doing exactly nothing to defend against and debunk all the anti-Patriots rhetoric which permeated local and national media-and the NFL-from 1970-1993.

Kraft likely thought, "Hey, I'm Bob Kraft, I'm the new guy, everything's different now, we've got our act together here, you [NFL] can be as proud of us as we are to be in the league, let's all get along! We're pals now!"

Um, no. Nope. Not at all. Never.

Kraft likes to attribute this to jealousy. Where's the jealousy of the Steelers? The Cowboys? The Packers? The 49ers? No. It is not jealousy. It is pure, plain and simple prejudice. Fueled by ignorance and stupidity. And whoever is running the team website fuels it too. Lifelong Patriots fans do not, in fact, like being treated as though we do not exist.

The team Wikipedia page appears to be written by a fan of some other team.

In the "Rivalries" section, the Jets are listed first. Okay. Then, the Colts. Again okay, taking into account this century especially.

Then, the Bills? They're literally just listing all the teams in our division. Yes, lots of history between the two original AFL foes. Rivalry?

And the Dolphins. Again, a division opponent. The caption fails to mention the Orange Bowl jinx, or its historic breaking in 1986. It mentions Tom Brady's struggles there, as opposed to the reality of the TEAM's struggles there, despite some big victories - before and during Brady's tenure.

Finally, the Ravens. Seriously? An expansion team, established in 1996? How many times have we played them? Ever? Total? I can make a better case for the Broncos as a "rival". Or the Steelers.

So, two years ago I updated the page myself, adding the Oakland Raiders. An original AFL foe, we first played them on October 16, 1960. This series includes some of the most seminal, important, and historic events in the history of both franchises, and the sport. With championships on the line. This remains the most bitter rivalry in our history.

It was erased within less than a year.

I've been a fan since 76. The Raiders and Fins until the last ten years or so remained my two least favorite teams. The Steelers and Ravens have taken over that mantle with their nonstop idiot rhetoric about flags, cheating and the like.

So while I empathize with you on some of this using Wikipedia as an example for anything is like quoting Paris Hilton.

I also doubt Jerry Kramer gets the credit with modern Packers fans any more than Hannah does with Patriot fans. Starr gets more credit than anybody pre-Brady with the Patriots because in fact he deserves.

I support your love of the team history and not forgetting it but you have to keep it in perspective of what it was. The 76 and 85 teams were amazing and deserve their due as do the players who comprised them. You say the Raiders are our most bitter rival. Certainly true for me growing up. Do you actually think the Patriots even registered in the top 5 for the Raiders before 2001? Sure a few fans might have put them there for 85 but even now it's probably Broncos, Chiefs, Steelers, Dolphins, Chargers and maybe even still Seattle before you talk about the Patriots given they were in that division and are geographically closer. .

That's why I don't get the Jets beyond the Tuna stuff and the being in the division. Sure we're their #1 but they aren't in the top 5 in my mind. We were the same in Oakland's mind. Oakland is our bitter rival because of Drief and Tatum. Maybe we've cracked their top 5 now.

Given the last 20 years I'd still give the Raiders a spot but they're not #1 any longer. Things change.

 

[everlong]

And, the Giants/Steelers/Packers/49ers/Cowboys/Raiders teams with multiple stretches of worse futility stretching across decades?

Again I think the Pats have now joined that group who will always be considered elite because they were at one time. The Raiders and Browns who have been a joke in the recent past are still talked about as flagship franchises because of the history.

 

[everlong]

Well, let's see who's better...Marino...um...Favre,...Aikman? Young?

Flutie got to play one playoff game, not counting being thrown to the wolves by the Bears, and he did pretty well, a 90 rating. In 1988 before his prime, and in 1999 after it, he got the rug pulled out from under him by the head coach at the very end of those seasons. So, we'll never know.

Except that he could have spent his prime right here, with some pretty good players.

I like Flutie but he wasn't a generational talent. I wish he got his shot too. In today's game he would have but you can't compare him to Marino, Favre, Aikman and Young. There's just nothing to support it. Could perhaps, but didn't.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I like Flutie but he wasn't a generational talent. I wish he got his shot too. In today's game he would have but you can't compare him to Marino, Favre, Aikman and Young. There's just nothing to support it. Could perhaps, but didn't.

Aikman, Young - and Elway - for example, were putrid at times when they first came into the league. Flutie was treated more like a project than Tim Tebow.

Flutie turned a nondescript BC team into a national power. While Moon was impressive and successful there, Flutie is rightly considered the best ever to play in that league, with multiple season and career records to back it up, in only eight seasons.

Young, like Flutie, initially played professionally in the USFL. Ultimately, he was handed the controls to the best team in the game.

 

[everlong]

Okay, nothing against Ken Anderson or Anthony Munoz, but please...

The Patriots of the 70's were a record-setting, top level contender which faced unparalleled adversity in the form of Dreith and Tatum, along with poor ownership decisions (Hannah/Gray, throwing Fairbanks under the bus) and bad luck (Adams lost for season in Week 1 on 9/3/78).

The 80's Patriots likewise were very competitive but lost due to the head coach's marriage to an inferior, should-be backup quarterback.

For twenty years, from 1964-1983, the Giants were putrid. They, like the present Raiders and Dolphins, are accurately described as a 'laughingstock' and 'second-rate franchise', unlike the post-1973 Patriots, who were consistently good after only a seven year run of losing, if you include Fairbanks' first season.

What I was saying about the Giants was that they could go through that and instantly be credible against because of the history. If Gruden turns around the Raiders ditto. Unlike Arizona who has to do it for a long time to turn the stereotype around.

1970-1989

Bengals 155 wins, playoffs 4-6, 2 SB appearances.
Patriots 144 wins, playoffs 3-5, 1 SB appearances.

The Patriots a good comp for the Bengals of those two decades. They had a lot of other great players like Boomer, Icky, Collinsworth, Dan Ross, Krumrie....

 

[everlong]

Aikman, Young - and Elway - for example, were putrid at times when they first came into the league. Flutie was treated more like a project than Tim Tebow.

Flutie turned a nondescript BC team into a national power. While Moon was impressive and successful there, Flutie is rightly considered the best ever to play in that league, with multiple season and career records to back it up, in only eight seasons.

Young, like Flutie, initially played professionally in the USFL. Ultimately, he was handed the controls to the best team in the game.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. While I think he deserved a better shot I can't compare him to those players.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Things change.

Bears-Packers still going strong. Even when both teams suck.

I also doubt Jerry Kramer gets the credit with modern Packers fans any more than Hannah does with Patriot fans.

Hannah still gets lots. Packers fans are stupid.

Starr gets more credit than anybody pre-Brady with the Patriots because in fact he deserves.

Steve. Grogan.

Do you actually think the Patriots even registered in the top 5 for the Raiders before 2001?

Raiders fans are the stupidest. Not worse, but definitely stupider than Giants fans.

Given the last 20 years I'd still give the Raiders a spot but they're not #1 any longer.

Their first world 'championship' was stolen - from us.

Try to imagine the Patriots at the beginning of this century without Troy Brown.

That is the impact of the loss of Darryl Stingley.

Sure a few fans might have put them there for 85 but even now it's probably Broncos, Chiefs, Steelers, Dolphins, Chargers and maybe even still Seattle

Yes. To them.

Nothing that ever happened in the series with those other teams [the Holy Roller? Rob Lytle?] ever had the impact, and spawned the bitter, unforgivable hatred between each other that we went through. For the rest of eternity, as long as the Raiders exist, wherever they are, they cannot lose enough.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

What I was saying about the Giants was that they could go through that and instantly be credible against because of the history. If Gruden turns around the Raiders ditto. Unlike Arizona who has to do it for a long time to turn the stereotype around.

1970-1989

Bengals 155 wins, playoffs 4-6, 2 SB appearances.
Patriots 144 wins, playoffs 3-5, 1 SB appearances.

The Patriots a good comp for the Bengals of those two decades. They had a lot of other great players like Boomer, Icky, Collinsworth, Dan Ross, Krumrie....

Good stats. Still lol. The difference is unlike us, they were nowhere near the top in the 70's; and Eason, who of course played when they beat us here in '86. They also beat us three times in the early 70's. We won the other five meetings in that stretch.

You can make a good case for the Oilers too.

Today's Bengals have won quite a bit, recently under Marvin Lewis.

Are they in any way, shape or form comparable to us this century? No.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Again I think the Pats have now joined that group who will always be considered elite because they were at one time.

In our minds, maybe.

But, the normal "rules" do not apply to the Patriots.

 

[captain stone]

499 should've happened 2 weeks ago, at least.

and 500 the week after if it weren’t for the refs

The holding calls against Trent Brown & Cannon were legit; the one against Mason was somewhat less than that, bordering on...borderline.

 

[TinhWoodhead]

The holding calls against Trent Brown & Cannon were legit; the one against Mason was somewhat less than that, bordering on...borderline.

It smells agenda when its that lopsided

 

[Brewskies]

Hey, if Sunday's game against the Jets brings them their 500 win then I am proud to be a fan.

Go Pats

 

[everlong]

In our minds, maybe.

But, the normal "rules" do not apply to the Patriots.

While once people just disregarded the Patriots now there's strong feelings one way or another. It's would take Jet like effort over the next 50 years to change that.