Semi-OT: Jim Brown for GOAT?

[Seacoast Fan]

I have always thought Jim Brown was the greatest. As has been pointed Out above, he was so far ahead of everyone else and doing it when it was a running league and everyone knew it was coming. And regarding the championship record, he played when the Green Bay Packers were dominant. They were stacked. The Cleveland Browns were not.

 

[Lombardi#5]

If taking just impact on the game Brady is the GOAT for sure. No other position has the impact a QB can have on a game. If were taking that out of the question then there is some debate for sure. I'd say Rice and Taylor have a good case for GOAT as well if that's the case. Those two are so far above others that have played their position that its not even close.

 

[convertedpatsfan]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts, especially those who saw him play. It's been great to learn more about the legend.

Again, not trying to tarnish the guy in any way, but I really know so little about the era and I'm interested in learning more so this thread has helped motivate me to dig around some more.

A contemporary of Brown's was Jim Taylor of the Green Bay Packers. Brown started his career in 1957, and played 118 games. Taylor started his career in 1958, and played in 124 games. Brown was an instant impact player, winning AP MVP his first two seasons, and leading the league in rushing every year but one. Taylor wasn't as impactful, but by the 1960s, had finished just behind Brown several times, and led the league in rushing the only year Brown didn't. Both are HOFers.

Brown was obviously the better player in pretty much every way, but it was useful to see another era HOFer playing the same position to get a relative understanding of just how good Brown was. For example, I could see that Brown averaged 5.2 YPC in the regular season and only 3.65 YPC in the playoffs. Taylor averaged 4.4 YPC in the regular season, and only 3.48 YPC in the playoffs. So the argument that defenses geared up on the run makes a lot of sense now, and digging back through the archives showed a lot of big yardage games on the ground, but it wasn't uncommon at all to see the winning team averaging 3 or 3.5 yards per carry.

At the same time, Taylor's teams went 6-1 in the playoffs while Brown's team went 1-3. Taylor played for the great Vince Lombardi, so that's got to be part of it. But Brown and the Browns were very good too. Back in the day, only the team(s) with the top record got in the playoffs. So Brown played on some very good teams during this time.

In 1957, the Browns had the best regular season record in football. In the other division, the Lions tied the 49ers, and beat San Fran in San Fran 31-27 despite the 49ers running well (33 carries for 127 yards). The Lions would then blow Cleveland out 59-14 in the championship game. Brown ran 20 times for 69 yards. He wasn't even the leading Cleveland rusher that day. That honour belonged to teammate Lew Carpenter, who ran 14 times for 82 yards.

In 1958, the Browns were 9-3, tied for the top record in the league. Unfortunately they were also tied with the Giants in their own division, and lost the divisional playoff game 10-0 in a game where Brown ran only 7 times for 8 yards. I'm wondering what the hell happened in this game. Was Brown injured? It wasn't the QBs lighting it up since there were two who combined to go 10 for 27, 114 yards, 0 TDs and 3 INTs. I'm not sure how to adjust for era, but I think that's pretty bad in every era. That same Giants D which held Brown and the Browns to 24 rushing yards would give up 138 in the championship game to the Colts.

He had his best playoff game in 1964, running for 127 yards over the Colts as they finally won the championship. Oddly, it was the only year of the 4 where his team won the division but had a worse regular season record than the other division winner.

His next year would be his last, and again the Browns would finish the regular season with the best record, only to lose in the finals behind 12 carries for 50 yards from Brown.

A big part of that is probably the QB. Otto Graham and Paul Brown were finishing up their run by the time the Browns drafted Jim Brown. Paul Brown would only be around for the first 6 seasons of Jim Brown's career, and with what looks like 2 JAG QBs. And so maybe he can't win that many games. But some of the performances themselves feel so underwhelming.

It sounds like if we were going to find the QB equivalent of Jim Brown, he'd be like a combo of Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers, phenomenal regular season stats and ridiculously unmatched athleticism, but a spotty playoff record. And Brady's claim to GOAT has nothing to do with freak athleticism. Ditto GOAT WR Jerry Rice, who was too slow for many teams who spent his entire career trying to catch him. Though Rice has ridiculous production in the regular season, he was able to match that in the playoffs too, which is where Brady also forges his name in the discussion.

It is impossible to really evaluate across positions as several have noted. But it's been an interesting exercise and a chance to look back at an era I never really knew existed. So I appreciate everyone's thoughts and insights, and if you have more, please keep posting them.

 

[scott99]

Tom Brady
Jim Brown
Lawrence Taylor


The 3 greatest players of all time

Great list, I'd add Jerry Rice to that list. But I agree with those 3. LT was an absolute beast, most dominating LB I've ever seen.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Way before my time, seems unfair to judge not having watched any of his career.

But part of me looks back and feels...underwhelmed. This guy is a first-ballot HOFer, maybe the best RB in the history of the game sure, but GOAT player?

If BB were on this board, he would dislike this post for sure. And I'm not trying to insult Jim Brown's legacy (because he terrifies me), but in all the talk of the GOAT, I started looking up some of the names I wasn't as familiar with. I knew who Jim Brown was, but just from the stories and legends I'd heard. Some of his highlight reel runs are hilarious, a true man among boys, but I have no context about those plays. How was he against elite defenses? What about big game performance? I wanted to take a closer look at his career, as I never saw him play.

He played 9 years, and played in 4 championship games (different playoff format). His teams went 1-3 in those games and averaging 3.65 YPC and scored 1 TD in those 4 games.

He made the championship game in his rookie year, where they got blown out by the Detroit Lions 59-14. He carried the ball 20 times for 69 yards and his only playoff TD.

The next year, Brown ran for 1,527 yards and 17 TDs, averaging a ridiculous 5.9 YPC. But again in the championship game, he was shut down for 8 yards on 7 carries in a 10-0 loss. Was he injured or something? I wasn't around for this game, but that sounds like a bizarre stat line. He added 2 catches for 18 yards.

They wouldn't make it back to the big game for 6 years, when he finally had a big game in the championships, running for 114 yards on 27 carries. But 46 of those yards came on 1 big play, while the rest of the time he averaged 2.6 YPC. The year after would be his final year, and they made it back to the championship game, where he ran 12 times for 50 yards and caught 3 passes for 44 yards.

He averaged 0.9 TDs per game and 5.2 YPC in the regular season, and 0.25 TDs per game and 3.65 YPC in the championship games, going 1-3 in the process. I know running backs aren't evaluated on wins the way QBs are, but if we're talking about the greatest player of all time, regardless of position or era, isn't that resume a bit...lacking?

Feel free to dislike/disagree, but would appreciate actual responses with info and insights more as to why I'm an idiot for questioning him than just a simple click on an icon. Thanks.

I think Jim Thorpe, Red Grange, **** Butkus, John Hannah and Brady deserve consideration.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

If taking just impact on the game Brady is the GOAT for sure. No other position has the impact a QB can have on a game. If were taking that out of the question then there is some debate for sure. I'd say Rice and Taylor have a good case for GOAT as well if that's the case. Those two are so far above others that have played their position that its not even close.

Unlike Taylor, Rice has slipped a bit in consideration.

I've got Butkus over Nitschke, but just by a hair.

 

[patsfan13]

Well I was born in 1952, I got to see much of Jim Brown's career as a young boy. Things to note about the playoffs, other than a tie for first place in your divisionm the playoffs were the championship game nothing else. You played against the best of the other division. The Browns had to get by the Eagles and Giants each year to make the championship each year,

IMO both those teams had more overall talent than the Browns and had better QB's.

Each year the team from the East was seeing the Packers, Colts or Bears. The West was a stronger conference, Hell the Rams had a great front four each man made the all pro team multiple and they never sniffed a title game.

The Browns had a sub par QBs im mu opinions (Milt Plum and Gary Collins) THe only thing the team had to focus on was stopping Jim Brown.

Someone mentioned Jim Taylor, he played with HOF running back Paul Horningm who was quick and a very good receiver out of the backfield. Brown's coach for most of his career was Blanton Collier, as opposed to Lombardi with the Packers, Weeb Eubank for the Colts Allie Sherman with the Giants, Brown put his team on his back EVERY game and competed against better teams with more talent, of course there were also teams that were poor the Lions, 49ers, Steelers, Candinals Redskins and so on.


He was the best running back I have ever seen play. Gayle Sayers pre injury was the only comparable Rb to challenge Brown in that era.

 

[Seacoast Fan]

Thanks to everyone for your thoughts, especially those who saw him play. It's been great to learn more about the legend.

Again, not trying to tarnish the guy in any way, but I really know so little about the era and I'm interested in learning more so this thread has helped motivate me to dig around some more.

A contemporary of Brown's was Jim Taylor of the Green Bay Packers. Brown started his career in 1957, and played 118 games. Taylor started his career in 1958, and played in 124 games. Brown was an instant impact player, winning AP MVP his first two seasons, and leading the league in rushing every year but one. Taylor wasn't as impactful, but by the 1960s, had finished just behind Brown several times, and led the league in rushing the only year Brown didn't. Both are HOFers.

Brown was obviously the better player in pretty much every way, but it was useful to see another era HOFer playing the same position to get a relative understanding of just how good Brown was. For example, I could see that Brown averaged 5.2 YPC in the regular season and only 3.65 YPC in the playoffs. Taylor averaged 4.4 YPC in the regular season, and only 3.48 YPC in the playoffs. So the argument that defenses geared up on the run makes a lot of sense now, and digging back through the archives showed a lot of big yardage games on the ground, but it wasn't uncommon at all to see the winning team averaging 3 or 3.5 yards per carry.

At the same time, Taylor's teams went 6-1 in the playoffs while Brown's team went 1-3. Taylor played for the great Vince Lombardi, so that's got to be part of it. But Brown and the Browns were very good too. Back in the day, only the team(s) with the top record got in the playoffs. So Brown played on some very good teams during this time.

In 1957, the Browns had the best regular season record in football. In the other division, the Lions tied the 49ers, and beat San Fran in San Fran 31-27 despite the 49ers running well (33 carries for 127 yards). The Lions would then blow Cleveland out 59-14 in the championship game. Brown ran 20 times for 69 yards. He wasn't even the leading Cleveland rusher that day. That honour belonged to teammate Lew Carpenter, who ran 14 times for 82 yards.

In 1958, the Browns were 9-3, tied for the top record in the league. Unfortunately they were also tied with the Giants in their own division, and lost the divisional playoff game 10-0 in a game where Brown ran only 7 times for 8 yards. I'm wondering what the hell happened in this game. Was Brown injured? It wasn't the QBs lighting it up since there were two who combined to go 10 for 27, 114 yards, 0 TDs and 3 INTs. I'm not sure how to adjust for era, but I think that's pretty bad in every era. That same Giants D which held Brown and the Browns to 24 rushing yards would give up 138 in the championship game to the Colts.

He had his best playoff game in 1964, running for 127 yards over the Colts as they finally won the championship. Oddly, it was the only year of the 4 where his team won the division but had a worse regular season record than the other division winner.

His next year would be his last, and again the Browns would finish the regular season with the best record, only to lose in the finals behind 12 carries for 50 yards from Brown.

A big part of that is probably the QB. Otto Graham and Paul Brown were finishing up their run by the time the Browns drafted Jim Brown. Paul Brown would only be around for the first 6 seasons of Jim Brown's career, and with what looks like 2 JAG QBs. And so maybe he can't win that many games. But some of the performances themselves feel so underwhelming.

It sounds like if we were going to find the QB equivalent of Jim Brown, he'd be like a combo of Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers, phenomenal regular season stats and ridiculously unmatched athleticism, but a spotty playoff record. And Brady's claim to GOAT has nothing to do with freak athleticism. Ditto GOAT WR Jerry Rice, who was too slow for many teams who spent his entire career trying to catch him. Though Rice has ridiculous production in the regular season, he was able to match that in the playoffs too, which is where Brady also forges his name in the discussion.

It is impossible to really evaluate across positions as several have noted. But it's been an interesting exercise and a chance to look back at an era I never really knew existed. So I appreciate everyone's thoughts and insights, and if you have more, please keep posting them.

I understand what you trying to do, but please, do not ever mention Jim Brown in the same sentence with Peyton Manning. It's not even close.

 

[DarrylS]

My parents were not sports fans.. but my best friend's family were Brown's fans, so I learned about football from them.. it was not just Jim Brown but also Paul Brown and all the conflict with Art Modell.

The NFL a completely different game with names like YA Tittle, Butkus, Nitchske, Nobis, Lilly, Karras, Barney and Olson.. Brown was the cream of the crop. Permanently branded in my brain were his sweeps and once he got going was difficult to take down.

One of the highlights of my fandom was to have my picture taken with Jim Brown, as he came to the corrections facility I worked at to give out awards for his "Amer-I-Can Program", BB was there also and did not have my pix taken with him as thought he was just another JAG who soon be gone. During the presentation #32 said something to the effect, "If Michael Jordan did as much for the community as BB did the world would be a better place."

A bleeding defeated YA Tittle, the game was much different then.. to ask who is the NFL GOAT I think it needs qualification, as the game is so different.. not sure how you can compare Brady to Jim Brown.

 

[PatsFanInLondon]

Surely it all depends on your definition of "greatness"? Is it just down to ability, or does longevity enter the equation?

Jim Brown is surely up at or near the top in terms of ability, but he quit after nine years (I think) to go into acting, whereas TB12 has stayed at or near the top of his game for significantly longer than that.

Both are great. Both have a case for being considered the GOAT - and both of them probably don't care who you put #1.

(Unlike some people I could mention - yes, I'm looking at YOU Montana...)

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

My parents were not sports fans.. but my best friend's family were Brown's fans, so I learned about football from them.. it was not just Jim Brown but also Paul Brown and all the conflict with Art Modell.

The NFL a completely different game with names like YA Tittle, Butkus, Nitchske, Nobis, Lilly, Karras, Barney and Olson.. Brown was the cream of the crop. Permanently branded in my brain were his sweeps and once he got going was difficult to take down.

One of the highlights of my fandom was to have my picture taken with Jim Brown, as he came to the corrections facility I worked at to give out awards for his "Amer-I-Can Program", BB was there also and did not have my pix taken with him as thought he was just another JAG who soon be gone. During the presentation #32 said something to the effect, "If Michael Jordan did as much for the community as BB did the world would be a better place."

A bleeding defeated YA Tittle, the game was much different then.. to ask who is the NFL GOAT I think it needs qualification, as the game is so different.. not sure how you can compare Brady to Jim Brown.

Peyton's a really good player...but there's just no way I consider him as good as Y.A.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I disagree with Montana that the title of GOAT expired on a sunset provision last Sunday night at midnight. Funny how that worked. Brady is the GOAT, period. His dominance is so extensive that if he gets back to the Super Bowl next year he will have played in a combined total of 20 Conference Championship Games and Super Bowls. 12 Conference Chamionship games and 8 Super Bowls.

That's insane.

No one else is even close and it's very hard to imagine anyone ever coming close to those marks . As it stands no one is anywhere near the 18 combined championship games he is already at.

Yesterday was William Felton Russell's 83rd birthday.

Twenty-five years from now, if some pampered dunderhead with a strong arm racks up some statistics while sticking out his tongue, and isn't even as good as Unitas or Staubach but wins four Super Bowls and is considered the G.O.A.T. by the public, who find even stupider ways to attempt to denigrate Tom and his accomplishments, let's please remember today, and keep it real.

 

[jimnance]

Brown's career took place while BB was between 5 and 13 years old.

True but he probably knew more about football even back then, than you (or most of us) do now.

 

[jimnance]

Tom Brady
Jim Brown
Lawrence Taylor


The 3 greatest players of all time

pretty hard to argue with that list. i saw all 3 of em.

 

[jimnance]

You cant really compare players of different eras. but you CAN compare how dominant each player was in his own era.

jim brown was hands-down the most dominant nfl player ive ever seen. everyone knew he was going to run it-it was hilarious watching 4,5,6,7+ defensive players trying to stop him. he had power like earl campbell but was MUCH faster. he could run by you but he seemed to prefer to run OVER you. Does all that make him the goat? i have no friggin idea. its a pretty subjective thing. but one thing is NOT in doubt-he was BY FAR the greatest rb of all time-ive seen campbell,sayers,sanders,oj,****erson,payton,peterson etc. None of em even close. he was to rbs what michael jordan was to nba guards. not close.

TB pretty much has wrapped up the conversation of goat qb. LT is hands down the most dominant defensive player. in the end, TB will impact your team winning more, because of his position. hes the goat qb. and im eternally grateful to have the privilege of watching and rooting for him and the Patriots. thats good enough for me.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Tom Brady
Jim Brown
Lawrence Taylor


The 3 greatest players of all time

I think I'd be willing to take that list and tell Joe Montana where he can put it.

 

[RecoveringCowboy]

I think many forget how teams revolved around the running game before the 1980's - how many people subscribed to Woody Hayes said: There are three things that can happen when you throw a pass, and two of them are bad. A running back was often as valuable as a QB. Jim Brown was like Micheal Jordan or Micky Mantle in his day.

 

[pheenix11]

I don't think you can compare a RB to a QB. The QB just has so much more importance, it's not even funny.

Good luck trying to run your way to victory when you're down by 25. Bring up the safety and that's over.

They knew Brady was going to pass, they had their defensive package set up to stop the pass. And they still couldn't do it.

 

[DarrylS]

These arguments go on and on.. and it can never be resolved. Each were the greatest of their time and both deserve adulation, Brady enjoys a better "football" system, better technology and advanced medical/physiological care.. Jim Brown enjoyed none of that, but was nonetheless great at that time.

Jim Brown walked away at his peak, Tom Brady stayed on which adds to his legacy...

Football was a completely different game in the 60's than it is now.. so this can never be resolved.. cannot conceptualize how the two can be compared..