Semi-OT: Jim Brown for GOAT?

[convertedpatsfan]

Way before my time, seems unfair to judge not having watched any of his career.

But part of me looks back and feels...underwhelmed. This guy is a first-ballot HOFer, maybe the best RB in the history of the game sure, but GOAT player?

If BB were on this board, he would dislike this post for sure. And I'm not trying to insult Jim Brown's legacy (because he terrifies me), but in all the talk of the GOAT, I started looking up some of the names I wasn't as familiar with. I knew who Jim Brown was, but just from the stories and legends I'd heard. Some of his highlight reel runs are hilarious, a true man among boys, but I have no context about those plays. How was he against elite defenses? What about big game performance? I wanted to take a closer look at his career, as I never saw him play.

He played 9 years, and played in 4 championship games (different playoff format). His teams went 1-3 in those games and averaging 3.65 YPC and scored 1 TD in those 4 games.

He made the championship game in his rookie year, where they got blown out by the Detroit Lions 59-14. He carried the ball 20 times for 69 yards and his only playoff TD.

The next year, Brown ran for 1,527 yards and 17 TDs, averaging a ridiculous 5.9 YPC. But again in the championship game, he was shut down for 8 yards on 7 carries in a 10-0 loss. Was he injured or something? I wasn't around for this game, but that sounds like a bizarre stat line. He added 2 catches for 18 yards.

They wouldn't make it back to the big game for 6 years, when he finally had a big game in the championships, running for 114 yards on 27 carries. But 46 of those yards came on 1 big play, while the rest of the time he averaged 2.6 YPC. The year after would be his final year, and they made it back to the championship game, where he ran 12 times for 50 yards and caught 3 passes for 44 yards.

He averaged 0.9 TDs per game and 5.2 YPC in the regular season, and 0.25 TDs per game and 3.65 YPC in the championship games, going 1-3 in the process. I know running backs aren't evaluated on wins the way QBs are, but if we're talking about the greatest player of all time, regardless of position or era, isn't that resume a bit...lacking?

Feel free to dislike/disagree, but would appreciate actual responses with info and insights more as to why I'm an idiot for questioning him than just a simple click on an icon. Thanks.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I don't agree with Montana that there is no GOAT due to different eras. Winning is always the main ingredient and equalizer...though his point is well taken that things aren't that simple. That is when discussing a certain position.

I do believe it's absurd to compare different positions, though. I mean, is Lawrence Taylor better than Barry Sanders? How does Jerry Rice compare to Reggie White? Kind of silly when you think about it. Skill sets are so different they may as well not be playing the same sport. Bobby Orr or Dominik Hasek? Bob Gibson or Willie Mays? Totally different skills and objectives.

 

[Adam Seward]

Great question. Hopefully someone can add context to what the game was like back then and why Browns achievement is so significant to today's NFL.

 

[upstater1]

Running back is such a funny position. You never know who is going to have the goods back there. The only I can think of who has the size/speed combo of Brown is Earl Campbell. Herschel Walker is a big guy, very fast too, but he was very very easy to take down. Then you have the pluggers, like Emmitt Smith who just duck their heads in there and churn out yards. You have the flyers like Gayl Sayers. You have the speed guys like Eric ****erson and Adrain Petersen. The shifty guys like Barry Sanders and Walter Payton. When you think about all the different types of guys though, I think the last RB you'd want to face would be Jim Brown. I can't think of another. Maybe Earl Campbell--but we are talking about a relatively short career.

 

[Ivan]

I disagree with Montana that the title of GOAT expired on a sunset provision last Sunday night at midnight. Funny how that worked. Brady is the GOAT, period. His dominance is so extensive that if he gets back to the Super Bowl next year he will have played in a combined total of 20 Conference Championship Games and Super Bowls. 12 Conference Chamionship games and 8 Super Bowls.

That's insane.

No one else is even close and it's very hard to imagine anyone ever coming close to those marks . As it stands no one is anywhere near the 18 combined championship games he is already at.

 

[jri37]

Never saw Jim brown or Gayle Sayers play but have seen clips. Just from the backs I've had the privelage to watch I would put Earl Campbell and Barry Sanders as the 2 best I've ever seen play. The next tier would have O J excuse me while I throw up, Bo Jackson, Curtis Martin and Marcus Allen. Some of these guys had really short careers but the time they played they dominated. Left a bunch of really, really good backs out but I just looked at guys I thought dominated any time they played.

 

[bormio]

Jim Brown was a frigging load. The 5.2 ypc when everyone knew what was coming is incredible. Even the great RBs say Jim Brown was the best. He also was an all-time great lacrosse player.

 

[oldrover]

If BB were on this board, he would dislike this post for sure

That should tell you something.

 

[Pat the Pats Fan]

NFL was a much smaller league when brown played. Afl didn't even exist for half of his career. Game was run first and defense that allowed much different play than today. A successful qb like graham, Unitas or Starr might only throw 20-25 times in a game. That was what made brown so great, they knew he was running and couldn't stop him. They only played 12 games then too, so 1500 yards was 125 per game!

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

Brown's career took place while BB was between 5 and 13 years old.

 

[RecoveringCowboy]

Montana's point eras are different is valid. It's in context of his behavior of DefateGate remarks, his wife's remarks that he privately says he's the GOAT, reports he was not a fav of the Bay Area sports media.

GOAT RB would be between Brown and Payton. Brown has a good case.

 

[BobDigital]

I haven't given it a ton of thought yet.

Jim Brown clearly was great but he played so lon ago without a ton of tape and retired just before the super bowl era. Clearly he is the pre-super-bowl goat. However when I talk about all time QBs I draw a line pre super bowl era so i should do that too for the GOAT convo. Also If we go back that far do we include Don Hutson?

So I will limit my goat convo to Jerry Rice, Tom Brady, LT, John Hannah, Reggie White.

IDK where I rank who yet. If Brady wins 6 though he i clearly #1 in NFL history any position. He may be right now. Still thinking about it.

 

[BobDigital]

About Brown being bad in the championship game. To me it doesn't matter much. The reality is at the top level of the NFL RBs don't tend to win games. Generally good defenses are capable of stopping the run no matter who your running back is. This is why I don't value RBs much. We can spend a ton of capital on a great running back and good run blocking OL but in the end it won't help much in the big games.

That doesn't keep the running back from being the GOAT player but it is just evaluating the truth about a much hyped up position.

If we are to look at the GOAT in the NFL overall we must ask

#1 Do we give QBs special privilege in this conversation? Maybe we should and maybe we should not. It is the only position on the field where I feel a player can control enough of the game to have a fair amount of responsibility over winning and losing on an every game basis. If we do give special privilege how much do we give?

#2 How do we compare outside of position? I do this by dominance over your position. How good are you relative to the best in your position. What is the separation? Is Brady better over his HOF peers than Rice or LT are over theirs?

It is a combination of these 2 questions.

 

[Froob]

That should tell you something.

"I don't have Patsface or Instantfans..."

 

[jmt57]

Jim Brown was my favorite player as a young kid. His play is what turned me into a lifelong football fanatic.

I think one thing that gets lost in the 'greatest ever' discussions is that football is far more of a team sport than any other sport. Baseball is primarily the pitcher versus the batter. Basketball is primarily the guy with the ball getting a shot off against the player defending him. Hockey is the closest, but it's still the shooter versus the goalie.

With that in mind I think that counting championships is great for comparing teams, but should only have a minimal effect when comparing individuals.

Since the game is so different from one decade to the next, to me the best way to approach players from different eras is not to compare stats and trophies, but to analyze how they performed in comparison to their peers.

For example, Bobby Orr was scoring 30+ goals and 100+ points when other all-star NHL defensemen were scoring 2-5 goals and maybe 30 points. Simply amazing. Same way with Babe Ruth hitting 50+ home runs when nobody else even hit twenty.

The difference between Jim Brown and his peers was not as dramatic as what Orr or Ruth accomplished, but it was indeed a case of a 'man among boys'. He would run over players, eventually be mauled down by the entire defense, slowly get up - and then do it again and again. Brown only had one season in his entire career when he did not lead the league in rushing. After his rookie season he was either first or second every year in both yards from scrimmage and all purpose yards. At the time when he retired only two other players in pro football history had rushed for even half as many yards as Brown in their career. Even though opponents knew what was coming he averaged 5.2 yards per carry. Who needs to worry about converting on third down when you're almost never facing a third down?

I only caught Brown at the end of his career so I can't really say why they didn't win more championships. From what I can see it looks like it was simply a different team playing really well each year. Maybe it had to do with key injuries (less than 40-man rosters then). With only two takes making the playoffs back then there were likely times that a single regular season loss was more crucial than it is today.

 

[TB_Helmet]

I was trying to make the Mount Rushmore of American sports and came up with

Ali
Ruth
Brady
Jordan

Seems like you could make a case for Brown over Brady, he seems like one of the quintessential American athletes. But Brady is much more recent so there might be bias against him for this specific question.

I just like seeing Brady next to these names obviously you could argue about this for days.

 

[deroc5050]

Different positions.. I mean its unfair to compare Tom Brady to Jim Brown. Tom Brady is the best NFL QB to ever play as of now. Maybe Jim Brown or Gayle Sayers or Barry Sanders whoever are the GOAT running backs of all time.

Its comparing apples and oranges.

 

[PatsBoy12]

Brown was a man amongst peewees and prematurely ended his own career. I wonder if he's ever regretted that.

 

[scott99]

Jim Brown was a great running back. I was born in 1962, but he was already retired before I really got into football (late 60s early 70s). One thing I noticed was just his sheer size. He was as big as a lot of Defensive linemen of that era. He also had good speed to go along with that power, and some good moves as well, and played on some great teams.

But personally I don't even consider him the greatest running back ever. To me, Barry Sanders was the greatest RB I've ever seen. Besides being great, he never played on a great team, never played with a great QB, his line wasn't the best during his years in the NFL. I always think, what might've Sanders have done if he played behind the Cowboys offensive line that Emmit Smith got to play behind ? He might've put up unreachable records. Sanders is the best RB I've ever seen.

 

[TB12TheGoat]

Tom Brady
Jim Brown
Lawrence Taylor


The 3 greatest players of all time