Pats and Asante Samuels Holding "Preliminary Talk" per Agent

[fester]

Yeah, I think a good ballpark figure for a Samuel's extension would be to take Ike Taylor's extension with the Steelers and probably decrease it by 5-10% or so. Taylor got 4 additional years for 22 million dollars. Both are the same draft class, 4th round picks, Taylor is a little bit bigger, little faster and better able to shut down big receivers (has problem against the quicker receivers), but that is the type of market Samuel may be looking at in my opinion.

 

[arrellbee]

Asante certainly improved his bargaining position on Sunday in Buffalo. He made a couple of really first-rate individual plays. Breaking up that pass in the end zone was a big-time play.

It is certainly a performance that is in the recent attention of the fans. But I have to wonder if one performance is even visible in the evaluation that Belichick and Pioli make. I would perhaps guess that weighing far more into their evaluation would be the innumerable plays over the last two season and even the large number of plays in only this year that they have the opportunity to view on coach's film. I don't, myself, remember Samuels getting burned very much this year, but we have such a poor view of the backfield. But it is probably safe to assume that a few brilliant plays would not erase a consistent problem with coverage. Please - I'm am in no position to know how many good plays versus poor plays there are. I'm just saying that our perception may not really be all that close to the depth of game film and practice performance that Belichick and Pioli use to make their assessment.

One thing we can probably guess. Samuels opinion of his own worth is probably heavily weighted to the spectacular plays without much regard to weighting of those versus all of his plays.

We also don't know very much about what kind of a dollar value Belichick and Pioli put on the CB position. They may not feel that the CB position is worth top 10 money or even top 20 money. There is some evidence that would lean in this direction since they didn't resign Ty Law nor sign any other 'name' CBs in the past.

Personally, I'm pretty pessimistic. I have this feeling that Samuels (and his agent's) expectation of his value is going to be significantly higher than the value that the Patriots put on the CB position and Samuels performance in particular.

Lest anyone think I undervalue Samuels, I submit that I have fair respect for him. I think he's definitely more than a nickel CB (as many seemed to feel before the season) and a dependable performer. I even think he has stepped up his game this season beyond last season. In addition to the interceptions (which probably aren't the most important part in the overall weighting) he appears to be getting more passes defended and, to my perception (which could be unrealistic), seems to be doing a more solid job on run defense - very important in my opinion. I would certainly hope that a deal can be worked out.

Just some thoughts.

 

[psychoPat]

John17's good numbers sold me
on approximately the package kurtinelson proposed earlier:
5 million per year, with an above-normal signing bonus as part of that.

Further ... i think Piolichick goes for that.
But does Asante?

 

[Big_Os_Hometown]

I always get a kick out of the idea of a player playing his heart out cause it's a contract year... How else would a Patriot play?

 

[arrellbee]

John17's good numbers sold me
on approximately the package kurtinelson proposed earlier:
5 million per year, with an above-normal signing bonus as part of that.

Further ... i think Piolichick goes for that.
But does Asante?

I don't think the Pats will offer in the $5M range to Samuels. But it's just an opinion.

 

[RayClay]

I have no idea what Samuels worth, nor what the Pats or anyone else will offer.

I do have some thoughts. Samuel has a good nose for the ball, the only difference this year is he's holding on to them.

He has been a very steady player, especially in the disaster last year when he caught a lot of crap. When the Patriots secondary totally fell apart, Samuel hung in there while the rest of the secondary, including Wilson, seemed to drift away.

When Hawkins and Hobbs steped in, he played that prevent defense type coverage to help stop the bleeding. I'm sure that wasn't his decision and once we stopped people from dancing in the end zone our secondary came around miraculously over the last few weeks, IMO.

He's not a super star corner, but he's very smooth, has a nose for the ball and the composure of a veteran.

If he stays, I think he has a long career here like Bruschi or Troy Brown.

If somebody offers the big bucks, he could have one of those "1 big contract" careers where he is miscast as a shut down corner then bounces from team to team.

I hope he doesn't. The Pats know how to use him and will get the most out of him even if we draft another corner.

 

[VJCPatriot]

I think 5M per year would be fair offer for Asante. Give him a nice signing bonus to put his siggy on the line. It would be similar to the deal Koppen got and it wouldn't break the bank. He'll have plenty of money to feed the family.

 

[arrellbee]

I think 5M per year would be fair offer for Asante. Give him a nice signing bonus to put his siggy on the line. It would be similar to the deal Koppen got and it wouldn't break the bank. He'll have plenty of money to feed the family.

There are only 3 players making over $3.7M (Koppen's $5M number is reported to include $2M in incentives that probably will carry over to next year).

Those players are: Brady, Seymour, and Colvin. I'm not sure they will ever pay the Colvin type money to anyone ever again.

So do you REALLY think that Samuel is worth being the 3rd or 4th highest paid player on the team ??

If you use that kind of 'pay the player' philosophy, you will run out of cap money VERY quickly - and then what do you do to resign the middle class players ??

 

[DaBruinz]

I think that Samuel will be paid slightly less than Lito Sheppard, but more than Ike Taylor.

 

[FinNasty23]

I really love Asante. The guy reps UCF real well...

It just sucks seeing him on your team (a division rival). Nothing personal, but I really hope he leaves NE. It freakin kills me to cheer for a damn Patriot...

And I wont ever forget that hit he put on Ricky last year...

 

[patsox23]

I think that Samuel will be paid slightly less than Lito Sheppard, but more than Ike Taylor.

You stole my line. Totally agree.

By the way, people, can we PLEASE get the man's name right? It's Asante Samuel. Singular. Not Samuels. Good Lord.

 

[Gopats!!!]

The key is to find out how big his family is and how much they eat.

Then we can make him an offer that will feed his family!!

Obviously just kidding - Samuel has never said anything stupid like that.

 

[Water Boy]

There are only 3 players making over $3.7M (Koppen's $5M number is reported to include $2M in incentives that probably will carry over to next year).

Those players are: Brady, Seymour, and Colvin. I'm not sure they will ever pay the Colvin type money to anyone ever again.

So do you REALLY think that Samuel is worth being the 3rd or 4th highest paid player on the team ??

It really has to do with the market. Decent experienced CBs command a higher salary than players at other positions like Saftey, OL, TE.

Its possible that BB/Pioli feel they can replace Asante's production with a cheaper alternative through the draft or with a cheap free agent.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Asante is gone. No way the Pats offer him $5M per, as he isn't worth that much. No way he agrees to an extension for less than $5m per. He'll hit the market and the he'll get paid. I'll be happy for him that he got his money and I'll be happy the Pats aren't overpaying him.

 

[5 Rings for Brady!!]

I have no idea what Samuels worth, nor what the Pats or anyone else will offer.

I do have some thoughts. Samuel has a good nose for the ball, the only difference this year is he's holding on to them.

He has been a very steady player, especially in the disaster last year when he caught a lot of crap. When the Patriots secondary totally fell apart, Samuel hung in there while the rest of the secondary, including Wilson, seemed to drift away.

When Hawkins and Hobbs steped in, he played that prevent defense type coverage to help stop the bleeding. I'm sure that wasn't his decision and once we stopped people from dancing in the end zone our secondary came around miraculously over the last few weeks, IMO.

He's not a super star corner, but he's very smooth, has a nose for the ball and the composure of a veteran.

If he stays, I think he has a long career here like Bruschi or Troy Brown.

If somebody offers the big bucks, he could have one of those "1 big contract" careers where he is miscast as a shut down corner then bounces from team to team.

I hope he doesn't. The Pats know how to use him and will get the most out of him even if we draft another corner.

Good point about being mis-cast as a shut down corner by some team with money to burn. That's the thing about Asante, he is good in a defense which doesn't always expose the CB.

 

[BackinBeantown]

I always get a kick out of the idea of a player playing his heart out cause it's a contract year... How else would a Patriot play?

Like Colvin?

Almost all (every?) players dog it a few times during a long grueling game. During contract years or when fighting for your job you would naturally have a little more incentive to hang it all out there.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Well a few points in favor for Asante

1) He's young and he's already good.
2) He is showing signs of improvement and is starting to make big plays.
3) Keeping him will help keep continuity in the defense.
4) He knows the system already and you don't have to break him in like you would a rookie corner.

Points against

1) Is not a "shutdown corner"
2) Would likely cost around 5M per year to resign
3) At 5'10" does not have the great height to matchup against the taller receivers that are becoming prevalent in the NFL

I would temper those above comments by saying that height is not everything in the Pats system. Positioning, awareness, instincts are just as important. And I think Asante is pretty good in those categories.

Also shutdown corners are just rare in this league. The question next year is where best can the Pats spend their money. Unless a premier corner like Champ Bailey or Charles Woodson becomes available as an alternative in free agency, the answer might be the best place to spend the money is to keep our guy at home.

 

[Alk]

I don't know where this $5 million is coming from. Here are the highest paid corners this season in no particular order.

Player Name Position Team Compensation
Bailey, Roland CB DB 5500000.00
Barber, Jamael Oronde CB TBB 4000000.00
Barrett, David CB NYJ 2055000.00
Baxter, Gary CB CLB 1500000.00
Bly, Dre' CB DL 3800000.00
Bryant, Fernando CB DL 2000000.00
Clements, Nate CB BB 7226000.00
Harris, Al CB GBP 1500000.00
Henry, Anthony CB DC 1800000.00
Herndon, Kelly CB SS 2000000.00
Hood, Roderick CB PE 1573000.00
James, Tory CB CNB 2875000.00
Kelly, Brian CB TBB 2400000.00
Macklin, David CB AC 2000000.00
Manning, Ricky CB CHB 1585000.00
McAlister, Chris CB BR 5500000.00
McCutcheon, Daylon CB CLB 2000000.00
McGee, Terrence CB BB 2000000.00
McKenzie, Mike CB NOS 1500000.00
O'Neal, Deltha CB CNB 2800000.00
Rolle, Samari CB BR 3000000.00
Thomas, Fred CB NOS 1900000.00
Webster, Jason CB AF 1800000.00
Winfield, Antoine CB MV 4700000.00
Woodson, Charles CB GBP 1500000.00

 

[mgteich]

Presuming that we could get Samuel for $25M for five years ($10M 2-part bonus), would we? I think so. This is about future planning and the 2000-2009 patriot dynasty. It is worth $5M a year to solidify two corners through 2009.

And please, understand that I will be the first to advocate using a first or second for a corner in the next draft, and have three corners set through 2009.

BTW, we also have the caproom for a $3M per year TE. Unfortunately, Graham's durability and wish to be elsewhere will likely lead us to having Thomas as the blocking TE.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Well a few points in favor for Asante

1) He's young and he's already good.
2) He is showing signs of improvement and is starting to make big plays.
3) Keeping him will help keep continuity in the defense.
4) He knows the system already and you don't have to break him in like you would a rookie corner.

Points against

1) Is not a "shutdown corner"
2) Would likely cost around 5M per year to resign
3) At 5'10" does not have the great height to matchup against the taller receivers that are becoming prevalent in the NFL

I would temper those above comments by saying that height is not everything in the Pats system. Positioning, awareness, instincts are just as important. And I think Asante is pretty good in those categories.

Also shutdown corners are just rare in this league. The question next year is where best can the Pats spend their money. Unless a premier corner like Champ Bailey or Charles Woodson becomes available as an alternative in free agency, the answer might be the best place to spend the money is to keep our guy at home.

I equate the term "spend the money" with overpaying or paying whatever a one or two team market that may overvalue a player they don't really know will pay. If Deion taught us nothing it is Belioli will not do that even "to keep our guy at home". The $6M they offered Deion was never going to amount to more than $5M per because of the remaining year. Ergo they valued him as a $5M WR.

Last offseason we persued 2 starting CB's. Townsend has been a similar player for the Steelers, a player they would prefer at nickle but a capable starter in the absence of better on a very good defense. We offered him $2M plus incentives per for 4 years, the same deal he re-signed with the Steelers for. He is older than Asante by 3-4 years so I could see an offer for Asante creeping up towards $3M per plus incentives. That is the deal we offer the ensemble guy who can play on a very good D. If Asante understands that is who he is he takes that deal. If he feels he is a starting CB who can pretty consistently handle playing on an island, he looks for a team who doesn't know him.

The other player we persued is a (former) shutdown CB. He is getting rather long in the tooth so we tempered our offer to reflect that and the fact that true shutdown corners are becoming dinosaurs courtesy of Bill Polian. We offered him $4.5M plus incentives for 2 years. I don't see us offering any CB $5M per, let alone Asante Samuel. After the 2005 season he'd have been lucky to get a job with another team on anything other than a short term highly incentivized contract. He is what he is, which is probably fine as long as we have a great front 7. That is where Belioli prefer to spend their big bucks. But we may be forced to upgrade eventually as Tedy and Rodney approach retirement. We likely will spent a lot more on their replacements than we have spent on them or will ever spend on Asante because we run our defense through our LB's and Safeties.