OT: Official 2020 Tompa Bay Gronkaneers Thread

[long distance]

Interesting video and the most concerning of all of the plays when it comes to Brady was that force to Gronk at the end. This one brings back many memories from rewatch threads of year's past.

That being said I still don't think he played really bad. But then again I am judging this on a curve where we have a 43 year old QB who is notoriously detailed focused and has issues trusting new receivers that switched teams and systems. Obviously if you'd rate this on an absolute scale against what Brady has been able to do and the talent he has around him right now in Tampa it was a pretty big dud.

I think a lot of this will look better in 3-4 weeks which is convenient because they should walk over the Panthers, Broncos, Chargers and Bears and then have their first real test of the season against the Packers. If the offense still looks so hapless in the middle of October then they might have a problem.

Agreed on that Gronk play. Could be more of a buddy than trust issue there which makes it even more concerning.
Also agreed on memories form last couple of years here.

This is why im less optimistic about significant turn of the tide. As mentioned several years ago, it will not be his hand that will go first - he threw some rockets as well the other night - it will be the mental aspect (a bit slower processor, less trust, not as relaxed/present in the moment, more looking from the outside etc.). It was quite brutal on Sunday by any standard (you could see it in his face after) and it was all mental mistakes, not mechanical.

Another worrisome play was when he did not throw it short to completely open Gronk in the middle the way it looked designed - just hesitated there for what seemed like eternity until he was sacked. I was quite impressed with his ball security on all those dangerous sacks from behind, but those balls will start falling out..

He might not throw another interception for a while going forward but this might affect his problems with the flow of the offence even more..

And as long as they keep featuring Gronk in that offence TaBa is going nowhere im afraid..

 

[upstater1]

Will be good for Brady's reputation as not a system QB if he can actually succeed in... another system

.

Peyton went to Denver and played horribly in another system. He then had it out with the OC and they let Peyton switch the system. He then proceeded to break all the records. QBs do the things they are good at doing. Like Cam Newton right now. Like every other QB ever.

In fact, that system Brady was so good at is responsible for 6 Super Bowl victories. One would think that if it was the system, someone would have adopted it at some point and had some success with it. But which team did?

 

[luuked]

Agreed on that Gronk play. Could be more of a buddy than trust issue there which makes it even more concerning.
Also agreed on memories form last couple of years here.

This is why im less optimistic about significant turn of the tide. As mentioned several years ago, it will not be his hand that will go first - he threw some rockets as well the other night - it will be the mental aspect (a bit slower processor, less trust, not as relaxed/present in the moment, more looking from the outside etc.). It was quite brutal on Sunday by any standard (you could see it in his face after) and it was all mental mistakes, not mechanical.

Another worrisome play was when he did not throw it short to completely open Gronk in the middle the way it looked designed - just hesitated there for what seemed like eternity until he was sacked. I was quite impressed with his ball security on all those dangerous sacks from behind, but those balls will start falling out..

He might not throw another interception for a while going forward but this might affect his problems with the flow of the offence even more..

And as long as they keep featuring Gronk in that offence TaBa is going nowhere im afraid..

You might be absolutely right with everything you have said. It certainly looks brutal.

For now my mind is giving him the benefit of doubt because of all the challenges of switching team and system.

But like you said.. a lot of what we have seen against the Saints feels weirdly familiar.

 

[luuked]

In fact, that system Brady was so good at is responsible for 6 Super Bowl victories. One would think that if it was the system, someone would have adopted it at some point and had some success with it. But which team did?

It is the fit between the player and the system. Peyton was running a pretty simplistic offense which notoriously had only a couple concepts in it. But it was the perfect fit. There is a great Grantland article about it:

» One-Trick Pony

grantland.com

Similarly the Pats leveraged Brady's quick release, accuracy, fast processing speed at the line to find mismatches and understanding of opponents to get into the right play into multiple titles by marrying it to an offense that emphasized those abilities. Degrade some of his abilities a little bit and the offense might suddenly run much less efficient without changing the personnel. The margins between a completed pass are often razor thin.

And that is why I don't think you can just move an offense to a different team and expect it to translate. You can move fundamental ideas and general concepts over but without Brady being Brady you won't be able to run exactly that offense.

What are these statements really based on?

I always read this and I can think of a ton of receivers from other teams that played well with him, many of whom couldn't play with any other QB in the league and do as well as he did.

I don't think there is evidence of this.

I don't know what you consider evidence but we have had now almost a decade of comments from former players, beat guys or people like Zolak telling us about his circle of trust and how difficult it is to get into it. Also how if he doesn't trust you he will not look your way.

Of course you can call this hearsay but if you hear the same things out of dozens of people consistently over the course of more than a decade then there is a lot of smoke to support that.

 

[Lagaffe_07]

I think that the main thing that change is his willingness to take hits. He is not as comfortable as before in the pocket. I think that leads to more « mental » mistakes. Some throws are rushed because of the pressure where 5 years ago he waited .5 seconds more to make the right throw.

 

[lancerman]

Will be good for Brady's reputation as not a system QB if he can actually succeed in... another system

.

You know it’s kinda funny but it’s 2020 and there still seems to be a lot of fall out from that game. Like we probably wouldn’t have this threat on the board if not for that game

 

[TomPatriot]

A couple of guys just “having fun.”

 

[upstater1]

It is the fit between the player and the system. Peyton was running a pretty simplistic offense which notoriously had only a couple concepts in it. But it was the perfect fit. There is a great Grantland article about it:

» One-Trick Pony

grantland.com

Similarly the Pats leveraged Brady's quick release, accuracy, fast processing speed at the line to find mismatches and understanding of opponents to get into the right play into multiple titles by marrying it to an offense that emphasized those abilities. Degrade some of his abilities a little bit and the offense might suddenly run much less efficient without changing the personnel. The margins between a completed pass are often razor thin.

And that is why I don't think you can just move an offense to a different team and expect it to translate. You can move fundamental ideas and general concepts over but without Brady being Brady you won't be able to run exactly that offense.




I don't know what you consider evidence but we have had now almost a decade of comments from former players, beat guys or people like Zolak telling us about his circle of trust and how difficult it is to get into it. Also how if he doesn't trust you he will not look your way.

Of course you can call this hearsay but if you hear the same things out of dozens of people consistently over the course of more than a decade then there is a lot of smoke to support that.

What's lost in the Grantland article is that Peyton didn't have success when he first arrived in Denver because the offense didn't suit his skills. Once they let Peyton take control that's when they started to have success.

I'm asking what WRs did Brady have trust issues with? In every case where Brady didn't throw to a guy, they were washed up or has been or no talents who never want on to do anything with any other QB in the league. Then there are players who he trusted a lot who also had marginal talent at best (like Reche Caldwell) who didn't do much in the league.

This is the problem. Outside of Randy Moss and Brandin Cooks the Patriots have never invested a lot in receivers. They have never drafted receivers with the frequency of other teams. If you told me they brought in, say, Antonio Brown and that Brady didn't trust him, then I would have said this is evidence of what you're saying. But Chad Ochocinco? A guy who doesn't even know plays? Why did Aaron Dobson do nothing in the NFL while Malcolm Mitchell had success? Why was Brandon Lloyd very good with the Patriots but did nothing when he moved on? Chris Hogan? David Givens? Deion Branch?

The Patriots lack of investment in WRs (I am not blaming Belichick for team building here since he chose to devote resources elsewhere to great success) is somehow held against Brady.

Just asking: what WR did Brady not connect with?

 

[upstater1]

I think that the main thing that change is his willingness to take hits. He is not as comfortable as before in the pocket. I think that leads to more « mental » mistakes. Some throws are rushed because of the pressure where 5 years ago he waited .5 seconds more to make the right throw.

That was true last year, when he had no WRs and no offensive line.

On Sunday I saw him holding onto the ball for a very long time. He threw the ball away only once (when he saw a DB was about to light up his receiver in the flat, he sailed it).

 

[luuked]

This is the problem. Outside of Randy Moss and Brandin Cooks the Patriots have never invested a lot in receivers.

What you think is a problem is actually one of the main reasons for their consistent success. They didnt overspend at position that can be schemed up like pass rusher or WR.

With Brady running the offense as efficiently there was no value in spending big on WRs. The closer to the end he got the more help they needed to invest into skill positions.

I will not regurgitate this never ending discussion especially because it seems like you are only after reasons to validate your own biases. The way you make it sound like Brady made players like Hogan work when in reality a lot of kudos has to go to McDaniels for finding the ideal role for a limited player tells me it would be a waste of time to write any more about it.

Ironically now with Cam on board I could see them invest into a legit deep player because it would augment his skillset much more than with Brady. I can't wait for the meltdown from people and how they will most likely accuse BB for being petty.

 

[RIpats88]

I wouldve thought Arians wouldve built a better Offensive line for his 43 year old QB. Brady was taking some massive hits. I know thats Arians MO, but he was taking some massive hits.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I think that the main thing that change is his willingness to take hits. He is not as comfortable as before in the pocket. I think that leads to more « mental » mistakes. Some throws are rushed because of the pressure where 5 years ago he waited .5 seconds more to make the right throw.

I agree completely. That's something I have noticed for a few seasons now.

 

[1960Pats]

If you’re upset about this thread, you should be happy you weren’t around for the Malcolm Butler Mega Thread, which started after SB 52 and was still on page 1 well after he was off the team and all through the completion of SB 53. That thread made dumpster fires go hide in shame....

Maybe a mega mega mega thread could be started to discuss whether Butler staying on the bench was a factor in Brady's decision to leave.

 

[PatsBoy12]

I wouldve thought Arians wouldve built a better Offensive line for his 43 year old QB. Brady was taking some massive hits. I know thats Arians MO, but he was taking some massive hits.

And this is one of the issues that I have with the people who just want to come in here and talk decline decline decline as if they can't take an objective view and see that it's not that simplistic. I saw a pocket that was being pushed into Brady on a number of throws, even some of the good ones. Their LT looks like Marshall Newhouse on some plays, to the point where the outspoken coach said he was "disappointed" in his play. So while Brady is obviously not the same guy he was pre-2017, let's at least witness and acknowledge that there are, and have been, other issues with both teams that definitely fit into this discussion.

 

[upstater1]

What you think is a problem is actually one of the main reasons for their consistent success. They didnt overspend at position that can be schemed up like pass rusher or WR.

With Brady running the offense as efficiently there was no value in spending big on WRs. The closer to the end he got the more help they needed to invest into skill positions.

I will not regurgitate this never ending discussion especially because it seems like you are only after reasons to validate your own biases. The way you make it sound like Brady made players like Hogan work when in reality a lot of kudos has to go to McDaniels for finding the ideal role for a limited player tells me it would be a waste of time to write any more about it.

Ironically now with Cam on board I could see them invest into a legit deep player because it would augment his skillset much more than with Brady. I can't wait for the meltdown from people and how they will most likely accuse BB for being petty.

Accuse me of bias and then refuse to come up with a single bit of evidence? Really?

What receiver did he not connect with? It's a simple question.

The closer Brady got to the end, the fewer receivers he had--and by the end, I mean like last year, when he had no one other than a broken-ribbed Edelman.

& where did I say the lack of WRs was a problem for the Patriots? I wrote the exact opposite of that. I wrote that Belichick built the team with great success. The exact opposite of calling it a problem.

If McDaniels was so good at finding limited players, why did he sign dozens of others who were bottom of the barrel and didn't work? Why did these WRs who did work only work well with Brady and no other QB in the league? Explain Givens and Branch and all the WRs who left and didn't do so well. And WRs who didn't even play under McDaniels (McDaniels who went to other teams, by the way, and didn't have the same success coaching up the offense) but instead under O'Brien and Weis, 2 coaches who couldn't reproduce the results with NE WRs elsewhere.

As for legitimate deep threats, can you name the ones Brady has worked with? Because Sunday he was showing that he is pretty good at throwing the long ball, and I've always thought this would be the case when you actually have a stud WR running those routes. I was not surprised at all to see that happen.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Brady looked bad on Sunday. I’m just saying Tampa has a lot of upside. You can say that about any team, but they really do for obvious reasons.

One is the problems with Brady’s symbiotic relationships with receivers in the read/react EP system is he ran out of receivers. It’s going to be an adjustment period for Brady...he has a classic “modern” NFL offense now with a ton of athleticism and talent but apparently simplicity too. It will interesting to see if they can find some way to meet in the middle like Manning in Denver. One thing Manning struggled with was the language and terminology change. Noticed Tampa brought in Tom Moore (Manning’s old OC/assistant) and wondering if bridging that gap is his directive.

Will be interesting to see how Tom adapts to a very different system as the season progresses.

Tampa's line sucks, particularly at LT. And Dante Scarrnecchia isn't there to protect him anymore. As far as Manning is concerned, it took him 4 years to win a title in Denver and he was 36 when he got there. Brady doesn't have that luxury.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Will be good for Brady's reputation as not a system QB if he can actually succeed in... another system

.

This is why I feel like there was very little upside in him going to Tampa. If he retired, there would be a few people who would continue to call him a system QB. But now he's in Tampa he's got to play well or else everyone will say it was all Belichick, nevermind he's 43. Personally, I don't think Tampa was the right situation for him either. Their line is average and their coaching is a big step down from NE. If they can somehow work on Donovan Smith to improve, and Tom gets a little bit more protection, I can see him making some good throws. He's not going to be a 30 TD guy at his age. However, the Bucs defense and running game is going to have to carry him I'm afraid.

 

[luuked]

Accuse me of bias and then refuse to come up with a single bit of evidence? Really?

What receiver did he not connect with? It's a simple question.

The closer Brady got to the end, the fewer receivers he had--and by the end, I mean like last year, when he had no one other than a broken-ribbed Edelman.

& where did I say the lack of WRs was a problem for the Patriots? I wrote the exact opposite of that. I wrote that Belichick built the team with great success. The exact opposite of calling it a problem.

If McDaniels was so good at finding limited players, why did he sign dozens of others who were bottom of the barrel and didn't work? Why did these WRs who did work only work well with Brady and no other QB in the league? Explain Givens and Branch and all the WRs who left and didn't do so well. And WRs who didn't even play under McDaniels (McDaniels who went to other teams, by the way, and didn't have the same success coaching up the offense) but instead under O'Brien and Weis, 2 coaches who couldn't reproduce the results with NE WRs elsewhere.

As for legitimate deep threats, can you name the ones Brady has worked with? Because Sunday he was showing that he is pretty good at throwing the long ball, and I've always thought this would be the case when you actually have a stud WR running those routes. I was not surprised at all to see that happen.

Look this discussion of "poor Brady always was undersupplied when it come to talent" has been had at least a dozen times too often in the last couple of years and I am simply not interested in it. From my point of view since Brady turned into Brady he almost always had a supporting cast that was good enough to get into the top 5 offense in the league. He also got to 6 SBs and won 3 titles. For the most part there is no reason to be upset with how the offense was handled over the course of many, many years.

When it comes to your crusade about the narratives that are attached to Brady and how difficult it is to earn his trust there is not much to say that has not been documented for over a decade by many people inside and outside the organization. If you think they are making things up about how demanding he is as a QB then just go on believing that.

 

[RIpats88]

This is why I feel like there was very little upside in him going to Tampa. If he retired, there would be a few people who would continue to call him a system QB. But now he's in Tampa he's got to play well or else people will say it was all Belichick, nevermind he's 43. Personally, I don't think Tampa was the right situation for him either. Their line is average and their coaching is a big step down from NE. If they can somehow work on Donovan Smith to improve, and Tom gets a little bit more protection, I can see him making some good throws. He's not going to be a 30 TD guy at his age. However, the Bucs defense and running game is going to have to carry him I'm afraid.

Thats how Bill wanted to run the patriots. in 2018 it won us a superbowl after the patriots look hap-hazard and lost that steelers game. Run-run-run, play defense and let Brady be a game manager and make plays when necessary. Its how they wanted to play in 2019, but injuries to the OL and the carousel of Wide receivers took that plan out.

I think Brady leaving for tampa was just a disagreement in philosophy right or wrong that brady says "hey im more than that at this stage, i want to win with my arm". But, at the time I questioned the Line/coaching staff. and Game 1 showed that the coaching staff is unprepared/inept (the penalties) and the OL is still a question mark as brady got hit alot.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Thats how Bill wanted to run the patriots. in 2018 it won us a superbowl after the patriots look hap-hazard and lost that steelers game. Run-run-run, play defense and let Brady be a game manager and make plays when necessary. Its how they wanted to play in 2019, but injuries to the OL and the carousel of Wide receivers took that plan out.

I think Brady leaving for tampa was just a disagreement in philosophy right or wrong that brady says "hey im more than that at this stage, i want to win with my arm". But, at the time I questioned the Line/coaching staff. and Game 1 showed that the coaching staff is unprepared/inept (the penalties) and the OL is still a question mark as brady got hit alot.

Tampa should have taken a page out of Belichick's 2018 playbook and see what worked for Brady. Personally, I think the Bucs got too arrogant and thought that our lack of talent was the reason for his decline and that they had all the pieces that we didn't have like Godwin and Evans. What they should have worked on was improving their offensive line, especially one that was good at run blocking. They missed out big time when Trent Williams was traded to SF. He would have been a huge upgrade over Donovan Smith.