Malcolm Mitchell coming back??

[PatsFan2]

If he practices, he must be designated. Will be listed on transactions wire first practice day. Either Dorsett or Britt is a potential casualty if he returns.

I am sure we'll have Phillip Dorsett on speed dial if worse come to worse... he's the obvious choice.

 

[luuked]

Jeff Howe gonna look really dumb if Mitchell comes back from IR.

Not sure MM coming back is required for Howe to look dumb. He has had a lot of very "interesting" takes through the offseason and regular season so far. When he reports facts he is fine but when he tries to predict things the wheels often come off..

 

[dafoe2016]

The kid will probably be injured again next year and will be not see a second contract with the Pats after his rookie deal ends. He's a good kid and a good WR. But the obsession with a guy who cannot stay on the field more than a couple of games a season is bizzare.

 

[Bruins29]

The kid will probably be injured again next year and will be not see a second contract with the Pats after his rookie deal ends. He's a good kid and a good WR. But the obsession with a guy who cannot stay on the field more than a couple of games a season is bizzare.

Who is obsessed with him? People are curious.

Also, he played 14 games last season and was outstanding in the Superbowl. What more could you want from a 1st year player.

Hyperbole much?

 

[maineman209]

Maine, did MM practice last week? It's my understanding (I could be wrong) to be part of practice the player must be designated for return. Other than that he is simply coming to the facility for treatment vs being out there in pads taking some practice hits and taking passes from Brady in practice time speed against Gilmore/Butler/Rowe etc.
IMHO MM is given designation this coming week or MM's season is officially over. I'd say the lone exception if BB see's MM has been staying in top shape through his rehab, feels he has grown a lot over the off season, and he feels MM could be up to speed with 2 weeks of practice and a game with some limited snaps.

TBH, with Branch's ankle injury and the signing of Britt, VV is the guy we now seem to need most (not that he is coming back - my guess is he is officially done for the year). Without Branch, Francois will be need to take meaningful snaps.
Regardless, it's hard for me to see MM making an impact based on time missed and that he had a great SB but otherwise wasn't an impact for many games last season. I have hopes of David Givens type glory for MM but I don't think he was there yet.

Mitchell didn't practice last week. You are correct that he must be designated in order to begin practicing with the team.

 

[maineman209]

Eaaasy big fella..

Lotta hate for Dorsett.

I seriously don't get it at all

 

[Bruins29]

Lotta hate for Dorsett.

I seriously don't get it at all

When you are a loser and have nothing in your life, you look for something to feel good about and its usually trying to bring someone down.

Typical for this place

 

[maineman209]

He’s maybe doing agility and conditioning drills on the playing surface. That’s great news.

I think it was Reiss who mentioned 3-4 weeks ago that Mitchell had started running again. It's possible that he's started cutting by now.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Mitchell didn't practice last week. You are correct that he must be designated in order to begin practicing with the team.

You threw me off brother with the post about if he practices "again this week". Of course getting thrown off could have been completely due to my earlier than normal start at weekend liquid cheer .

 

[maineman209]

You threw me off brother with the post about if he practices "again this week". Of course getting thrown off could have been completely due to my earlier than normal start at weekend liquid cheer .

If the clock says it's "early" to begin imbibing, obviously the clock is wrong.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

Lotta hate for Dorsett.

I seriously don't get it at all

Dorsett isn't putting numbers up and it is unlikely the lion's share of that isn't his fault. So I get he'll get some hate.
One thing I have seen with Brady is guys have to get open in a way that triggers his field of vision. That's not a knock on Brady; there is no such thing as a QB who always sees every spot of the field and every guy who is open for a couple of ticks. It's an impossible level to operate at even for GOAT. So how Brady sees the field is how a receiver needs to jive with. The times Dorsett has got open (and he has gotten open at times) just isn't in a way that is within that FOV (that's the positive spin for Dorsett ).

Signing Britt, Hogan back, and not getting one single snap against Miami(??) is baaaad news for Dorsett though. Maybe it was a message he needs to start doing something differently/as instructed or maybe it's a signal he's done with the Patriots.

 

[Ring 6]

Dorsett isn't putting numbers up and it is unlikely the lion's share of that isn't his fault. So I get he'll get some hate.
One thing I have seen with Brady is guys have to get open in a way that triggers his field of vision. That's not a knock on Brady; there is no such thing as a QB who always sees every spot of the field and every guy who is open for a couple of ticks. It's an impossible level to operate at even for GOAT. So how Brady sees the field is how a receiver needs to jive with. The times Dorsett has got open (and he has gotten open at times) just isn't in a way that is within that FOV (that's the positive spin for Dorsett ).

Signing Britt, Hogan back, and not getting one single snap against Miami(??) is baaaad news for Dorsett though. Maybe it was a message he needs to start doing something differently/as instructed or maybe it's a signal he's done with the Patriots.

But that’s not the way it works. Brady doesn’t drop back survey the field and try to find who is open.
The play call gives him reads and progressions. He reads the coverage and then goes through the progressions. If player 1 is open he throws, if not he goes to player 2, then 3 etc.

So if you arecthr 4th or 5th progressions and 1,2or3 are open Brady will never look at you.
When no one is open and the play breaks down, THEN he will survey the field but that happens very rarely and it would be reasonable that he is looking for his best receivers first.

 

[TheBostonStraggler]

But that’s not the way it works. Brady doesn’t drop back survey the field and try to find who is open.
The play call gives him reads and progressions. He reads the coverage and then goes through the progressions. If player 1 is open he throws, if not he goes to player 2, then 3 etc.

So if you arecthr 4th or 5th progressions and 1,2or3 are open Brady will never look at you.
When no one is open and the play breaks down, THEN he will survey the field but that happens very rarely and it would be reasonable that he is looking for his best receivers first.

Never meant to suggest the obvious isn't true that plays aren't called, defenses aren't read before the snap, and primary targets/initial intended targets don't exist. As well, if the (as I will call it) the prime target/targets are open it likely doesn't matter if Dorsett also got open (unless the unlikely and become extremely unlikelier case Dorsett is a primary).

I was speaking to, as an example, last week in Miami where the defense-coverage-situation required Brady to move in the pocket, buy extra time, hold onto the ball and look for every option and even a receiver to become open via what I'll call an ad lib (obviously this assumes the pass rush hasn't gotten to him -- certainly the case sometimes). Yes, the passing game is definitely rolling when the drop and pop target is frequently in a position Brady feels comfortable throwing the ball to (whatever triggers that comfort level that the pass is a high% comp/low% int). That just isn't going to be the case always and with Jules out it has been more frequently not the case. Jules being one of those extremely good drop and pop targets has pretty obviously been missed.

Once holding onto the ball/buying time occurs there will become, as each extra tick happens, a greater element of looking at any&all possible targets/the whole field, eventually even an "ad lib" between Brady & the receiver.
Under these circumstances it is an impossible standard for a QB to be able to see the whole field and be able to hit every open receiver/developing to be open. And my ultimate point in the last post (pardon the rambling here), what a receiver does, and even if he does get open or some separation, it doesn't mean it will trigger the "throw here" process that is going on with Brady. How Brady sees the FOV and how it will elicit a pass to that receiver may not jive between the two.
To be clear, in no way was this a knock on Brady. This was my take on the reality that Brady (again under the circumstances pointed out above) will see it as A and any receiver that is trying to get open in a B way is unlikely to trigger Brady's 'throw here' thought process. And as stated before, this is my best spin on Dorsett getting something like 2 or 3 targets in 6 games (especially as the WR group was pretty thin over that span).

 

[luuked]

Lotta hate for Dorsett.

I seriously don't get it at all

Same bozo crew that was making fun of Allen for the first half of the season or wanted Ghost cut at various points because they are too stupid to realize player roles or their contributions if they are not blatantly obvious or being pointed out repeatedly by media guys.

 

[Ring 6]

Never meant to suggest the obvious isn't true that plays aren't called, defenses aren't read before the snap, and primary targets/initial intended targets don't exist. As well, if the (as I will call it) the prime target/targets are open it likely doesn't matter if Dorsett also got open (unless the unlikely and become extremely unlikelier case Dorsett is a primary).

I was speaking to, as an example, last week in Miami where the defense-coverage-situation required Brady to move in the pocket, buy extra time, hold onto the ball and look for every option and even a receiver to become open via what I'll call an ad lib (obviously this assumes the pass rush hasn't gotten to him -- certainly the case sometimes). Yes, the passing game is definitely rolling when the drop and pop target is frequently in a position Brady feels comfortable throwing the ball to (whatever triggers that comfort level that the pass is a high% comp/low% int). That just isn't going to be the case always and with Jules out it has been more frequently not the case. Jules being one of those extremely good drop and pop targets has pretty obviously been missed.

Once holding onto the ball/buying time occurs there will become, as each extra tick happens, a greater element of looking at any&all possible targets/the whole field, eventually even an "ad lib" between Brady & the receiver.
Under these circumstances it is an impossible standard for a QB to be able to see the whole field and be able to hit every open receiver/developing to be open. And my ultimate point in the last post (pardon the rambling here), what a receiver does, and even if he does get open or some separation, it doesn't mean it will trigger the "throw here" process that is going on with Brady. How Brady sees the FOV and how it will elicit a pass to that receiver may not jive between the two.
To be clear, in no way was this a knock on Brady. This was my take on the reality that Brady (again under the circumstances pointed out above) will see it as A and any receiver that is trying to get open in a B way is unlikely to trigger Brady's 'throw here' thought process. And as stated before, this is my best spin on Dorsett getting something like 2 or 3 targets in 6 games (especially as the WR group was pretty thin over that span).

I think a more accurate explanation is this:

Dorsett is low on the list of who you want to throw the ball to. Therefore Dorsett when on the field is at the end of the progressions and often just a decoy. Most pass plays involve route(s) that are in the play to draw coverage away from where you want to throw the ball. For example if you want to throw to Gronk in the middle of the field, vs single high safety, send Dorsett deep on the other side of the field to pull the safety. Dorsetts route is sacrificial.
Routes are run in combination. You tell me which player are you going to give the route you hope to free up?
Cooks
Gronk
Hogan
White
Burkhead
Amendola
Dorsett

Which one is your decoy, or running the route in that combo that is there to draw coverage rather than get open?

Additionally Dorsett is known as a speed guy and deep threat which makes him the ideal decoy. I would imagine if you broke out the all22 you would see a plethora of go routes, out and ups, post corners etc from Dorsett. Low percentage routes used to take defenders away from the area of the field you want to attack.
Dorsett isn’t not getting targets because he is the focused receiver and can’t get open or because he gets open and Brady doesn’t want to throw to him.
He isn’t gwtting targets because the plays are designed for Brady to look for the better receivers on the team while Dorsett draws coverage away.
As far as when plays break down perhaps he could have a couple more balls thrown his way in those situations but a) they don’t happen often and b) Dorsett is probably 50 yards downfield and rushed for time, that’s not where you look.

 

[luuked]

I think a more accurate explanation is this:

Dorsett is low on the list of who you want to throw the ball to. Therefore Dorsett when on the field is at the end of the progressions and often just a decoy. Most pass plays involve route(s) that are in the play to draw coverage away from where you want to throw the ball. For example if you want to throw to Gronk in the middle of the field, vs single high safety, send Dorsett deep on the other side of the field to pull the safety. Dorsetts route is sacrificial.
Routes are run in combination. You tell me which player are you going to give the route you hope to free up?
Cooks
Gronk
Hogan
White
Burkhead
Amendola
Dorsett

Which one is your decoy, or running the route in that combo that is there to draw coverage rather than get open?

Additionally Dorsett is known as a speed guy and deep threat which makes him the ideal decoy. I would imagine if you broke out the all22 you would see a plethora of go routes, out and ups, post corners etc from Dorsett. Low percentage routes used to take defenders away from the area of the field you want to attack.
Dorsett isn’t not getting targets because he is the focused receiver and can’t get open or because he gets open and Brady doesn’t want to throw to him.
He isn’t gwtting targets because the plays are designed for Brady to look for the better receivers on the team while Dorsett draws coverage away.
As far as when plays break down perhaps he could have a couple more balls thrown his way in those situations but a) they don’t happen often and b) Dorsett is probably 50 yards downfield and rushed for time, that’s not where you look.

This.

Also same as with play action and the run game, using Dorsett consistently as a decoy opens him as a serious option at some point down the line when you absolutely need it.

 

[maineman209]

Never meant to suggest the obvious isn't true that plays aren't called, defenses aren't read before the snap, and primary targets/initial intended targets don't exist. As well, if the (as I will call it) the prime target/targets are open it likely doesn't matter if Dorsett also got open (unless the unlikely and become extremely unlikelier case Dorsett is a primary).

I was speaking to, as an example, last week in Miami where the defense-coverage-situation required Brady to move in the pocket, buy extra time, hold onto the ball and look for every option and even a receiver to become open via what I'll call an ad lib (obviously this assumes the pass rush hasn't gotten to him -- certainly the case sometimes). Yes, the passing game is definitely rolling when the drop and pop target is frequently in a position Brady feels comfortable throwing the ball to (whatever triggers that comfort level that the pass is a high% comp/low% int). That just isn't going to be the case always and with Jules out it has been more frequently not the case. Jules being one of those extremely good drop and pop targets has pretty obviously been missed.

Once holding onto the ball/buying time occurs there will become, as each extra tick happens, a greater element of looking at any&all possible targets/the whole field, eventually even an "ad lib" between Brady & the receiver.
Under these circumstances it is an impossible standard for a QB to be able to see the whole field and be able to hit every open receiver/developing to be open. And my ultimate point in the last post (pardon the rambling here), what a receiver does, and even if he does get open or some separation, it doesn't mean it will trigger the "throw here" process that is going on with Brady. How Brady sees the FOV and how it will elicit a pass to that receiver may not jive between the two.
To be clear, in no way was this a knock on Brady. This was my take on the reality that Brady (again under the circumstances pointed out above) will see it as A and any receiver that is trying to get open in a B way is unlikely to trigger Brady's 'throw here' thought process. And as stated before, this is my best spin on Dorsett getting something like 2 or 3 targets in 6 games (especially as the WR group was pretty thin over that span).

I agree that Dorsett's lack of targets is somewhat "on Brady", and not necessarily in a bad way.

There's almost certainly a pre-set progression of post-snap target reads for Brady on every play. Most of the time, that progression is designed into the framework of the play, and it's sometimes adjusted by Brady's (and the potential receivers') pre-snap reads of the defense (coverage and rush).

Under most circumstances, I'd guess that Brady fairly rarely gets past his second designed/expected target read, because one of his talents that makes him extraordinary is his ability (and his confidence in that ability) to hit a target who's barely open. By that I mean, a target who's "acceptably open" for Brady, but who might be considered "covered" by the majority of NFL QBs - who might, then, go on to the next read in their progression (a guy like Dorsett, for instance). But Brady throws it to that first "acceptable" read and, way more often than not, is successful. And then, the other, unused targets on that play get to block for the guy who caught the pass.

So, the potential targets on the field who may be the designed-in #3, #4 in Brady's progression for that play call, are simply less likely to see the ball under most circumstances. Brady just doesn't get that far into the progression very often because he doesn't usually need to (although he also screws up once in awhile).

If you go through the Pats history with Brady on Pro-football-reference, season-by-season, and sort the player receiving stats by number of tgts, you'll find that, on average, 3-4 players (5 this season) get 75%-80% of Brady's tgts. Also typically, two of those players are NOT WRs. That means that 1-3 of the other WRs on the roster are typically among the group of other offensive skill-position players (7 this season) who are left to divvy up the other 20%-30% of Brady's tgts (Dorsett is among those this season).
----------
"Dorsett isn't putting numbers up ..."

Here, I'll take issue.

According to who? And compared to what objective, quatifiable standard? And in what context?

In seven games in 2015, Lewis saw 7 tgts/game (72% catch rate).
In seven games in 2016, Lewis saw 3.5 tgts/game (71% catch rate).
In 13 games in 2017, Lewis has seen 1.6 tgts per game (95% catch rate) and has produced 137 receiving yards (Dorsett has 140).
In just nine games active in 2017, Burkhead has already seen 35 tgts (83% catch rate).

Have Lewis' receiving skills declined? Has he "lost Brady's trust"? Has he been phased out of the passing attack? Or could there be some other, situation/strategy specific reasons?

Dwayne Allen, in spite of the substantial receiving numbers he posted in Indy over several years, and in spite of having had a full off-season and Camp with the Pats, has caught 7 of 18 tgts (39%) for 50 yds. Hollister (roughly the same size as Britt) has caught only 3 of 7 (43%) for 37 yards, in spite of having had a full off-season and Camp with the Pats.

Dorsett has caught 7 of 11 (64%) for 140 yards (20.0 ypc) with three 20yd+ receptions, including a 38-yarder in the first Miami game just a couple weeks ago. How is that "nothing" (as some posters have been claiming)? How is that not "putting up numbers"? What kind of numbers are folks expecting? And based on what?

Dorsett actually has a better catch rate and has produced more yards on fewer tgts/game and in fewer snaps/game than almost any of the #4 WRs on the other leading passing teams this season, all of whom have been with their current teams longer (in some cases, FAR longer) than Dorsett has been with the Pats.

And, how much bigger would Dorsett's numbers need to have been by now to make fans happy? Would he need to have made 7 more catches? Had 21 or 31 tgts by now instead of 11 (Lewis has only 21)? Would he need to have gained another 60 yards? Another 100? Scored a TD? Seriously, what's the performance standard here that would qualify Dorsett as "not ****"?

And HOW could he have been putting up bigger numbers with the Pats at this stage? Would they have had Brady attempting more than his current 37 passes/game? Would they have had McD running the ball fewer than the current 27 times/game? In order for Dorsett to have been significantly more productive, SOMETHING would have had to give somewhere else. So, who would he have been taking snaps and tgts from to do so? Cooks? Gronk? Amendola, White, Hogan? Those five have accounted for 78% of Brady's tgts this season. Would Dorsett have been taking snaps or targets (or carries) away from Burkhead, Lewis or Gillislee?

So, could the Pats ultimately de-activate Dorsett in favor of Britt for Sunday? Sure! Would that constitute a "clear indication" that the Pats think Dorsett is worthless or would it be an admission that they "made a mistake" in trading for him? LOL! I have no idea what they'll actually do, or why, or how they'll internally evaluate Dorsett's (or Hollister's or Britt's) ability to contribute in this Sunday's game specifically, much less in the long term. I don't have a bug planted in BB's office and I don't read minds.

Almost certainly, many posters will interpret this lengthy argument as exclusively a defense of Dorsett, it's not. I don't think he's the greatest thing to come along since the twist-off beer cap. But, I also don't think he's **** or a "huge mistake", either. I don't think his stats support either extreme point of view. What I've been trying to do is to reel things back to a reasonable middle ground. So, what I'm defending here is a rational perspective based on reasonable expectations within the context of the current situation.

 

[aluminum seats]

I agree that Dorsett's lack of targets is somewhat "on Brady", and not necessarily in a bad way.

There's almost certainly a pre-set progression of post-snap target reads for Brady on every play. Most of the time, that progression is designed into the framework of the play, and it's sometimes adjusted by Brady's (and the potential receivers') pre-snap reads of the defense (coverage and rush).

Under most circumstances, I'd guess that Brady fairly rarely gets past his second designed/expected target read, because one of his talents that makes him extraordinary is his ability (and his confidence in that ability) to hit a target who's barely open. By that I mean, a target who's "acceptably open" for Brady, but who might be considered "covered" by the majority of NFL QBs - who might, then, go on to the next read in their progression (a guy like Dorsett, for instance). But Brady throws it to that first "acceptable" read and, way more often than not, is successful. And then, the other, unused targets on that play get to block for the guy who caught the pass.

So, the potential targets on the field who may be the designed-in #3, #4 in Brady's progression for that play call, are simply less likely to see the ball under most circumstances. Brady just doesn't get that far into the progression very often because he doesn't usually need to (although he also screws up once in awhile).

If you go through the Pats history with Brady on Pro-football-reference, season-by-season, and sort the player receiving stats by number of tgts, you'll find that, on average, 3-4 players (5 this season) get 75%-80% of Brady's tgts. Also typically, two of those players are NOT WRs. That means that 1-3 of the other WRs on the roster are typically among the group of other offensive skill-position players (7 this season) who are left to divvy up the other 20%-30% of Brady's tgts (Dorsett is among those this season).
----------
"Dorsett isn't putting numbers up ..."

Here, I'll take issue.

According to who? And compared to what objective, quatifiable standard? And in what context?

In seven games in 2015, Lewis saw 7 tgts/game (72% catch rate).
In seven games in 2016, Lewis saw 3.5 tgts/game (71% catch rate).
In 13 games in 2017, Lewis has seen 1.6 tgts per game (95% catch rate) and has produced 137 receiving yards (Dorsett has 140).
In just nine games active in 2017, Burkhead has already seen 35 tgts (83% catch rate).

Have Lewis' receiving skills declined? Has he "lost Brady's trust"? Has he been phased out of the passing attack? Or could there be some other, situation/strategy specific reasons?

Dwayne Allen, in spite of the substantial receiving numbers he posted in Indy over several years, and in spite of having had a full off-season and Camp with the Pats, has caught 7 of 18 tgts (39%) for 50 yds. Hollister (roughly the same size as Britt) has caught only 3 of 7 (43%) for 37 yards, in spite of having had a full off-season and Camp with the Pats.

Dorsett has caught 7 of 11 (64%) for 140 yards (20.0 ypc) with three 20yd+ receptions, including a 38-yarder in the first Miami game just a couple weeks ago. How is that "nothing" (as some posters have been claiming)? How is that not "putting up numbers"? What kind of numbers are folks expecting? And based on what?

Dorsett actually has a better catch rate and has produced more yards on fewer tgts/game and in fewer snaps/game than almost any of the #4 WRs on the other leading passing teams this season, all of whom have been with their current teams longer (in some cases, FAR longer) than Dorsett has been with the Pats.

And, how much bigger would Dorsett's numbers need to have been by now to make fans happy? Would he need to have made 7 more catches? Had 21 or 31 tgts by now instead of 11 (Lewis has only 21)? Would he need to have gained another 60 yards? Another 100? Scored a TD? Seriously, what's the performance standard here that would qualify Dorsett as "not ****"?

And HOW could he have been putting up bigger numbers with the Pats at this stage? Would they have had Brady attempting more than his current 37 passes/game? Would they have had McD running the ball fewer than the current 27 times/game? In order for Dorsett to have been significantly more productive, SOMETHING would have had to give somewhere else. So, who would he have been taking snaps and tgts from to do so? Cooks? Gronk? Amendola, White, Hogan? Those five have accounted for 78% of Brady's tgts this season. Would Dorsett have been taking snaps or targets (or carries) away from Burkhead, Lewis or Gillislee?

So, could the Pats ultimately de-activate Dorsett in favor of Britt for Sunday? Sure! Would that constitute a "clear indication" that the Pats think Dorsett is worthless or would it be an admission that they "made a mistake" in trading for him? LOL! I have no idea what they'll actually do, or why, or how they'll internally evaluate Dorsett's (or Hollister's or Britt's) ability to contribute in this Sunday's game specifically, much less in the long term. I don't have a bug planted in BB's office and I don't read minds.

Almost certainly, many posters will interpret this lengthy argument as exclusively a defense of Dorsett, it's not. I don't think he's the greatest thing to come along since the twist-off beer cap. But, I also don't think he's **** or a "huge mistake", either. I don't think his stats support either extreme point of view. What I've been trying to do is to reel things back to a reasonable middle ground. So, what I'm defending here is a rational perspective based on reasonable expectations within the context of the current situation.

Translation: Dorsett is "meh."

 

[mgteich]

Translation: Dorsett is "meh."

NO

Dorsett is not as primary a target as. I'll stop and just repeat AJ's list of priorities
Cooks
Gronk
Hogan
White
Burkhead
Amendola
Dorsett

I might even add Lewis before Dorsett. I would have Dorsett active, with no reps absent injuries, unless we were in garbage time. Personally, I am happy to have Dorsett and Britt on the 53, with one of them active, even if they have only a very few reps. They might be competitors for 2018 roster spots and reps, or not.

 

[Ring 6]

NO

Dorsett is not as primary a target as. I'll stop and just repeat AJ's list of priorities
Cooks
Gronk
Hogan
White
Burkhead
Amendola
Dorsett

I might even add Lewis before Dorsett. I would have Dorsett active, with no reps absent injuries, unless we were in garbage time. Personally, I am happy to have Dorsett and Britt on the 53, with one of them active, even if they have only a very few reps. They might be competitors for 2018 roster spots and reps, or not.

There is value in being a decoy.