Good D or Bad O? [merged]

[naclone]

Here's my problem with training camp. We read all these breathless descriptions about this great play or that great play made in practice. But seeing as how it's Pats players playing against other Pats players, there's always a negative side to that coin. So, for example, if James Sanders makes a great play on a ball, is that a true indication of Sanders performance or did Brady make a bad throw? If Maroney has a huge hole to run through is that indicative the new zone blocking scheme is working or the run D needs work?

Let me be clear, I'm in no way suggesting anything being reported is cause for worry, that's not my point. Only that I personally have a tough time following camp because you have no idea what the root of these good/bad plays are and it's extremely frustrating to gauge what's working and what isn't.

I'm sure everything is going great on both sides of the ball, but until we get to see our team go up against another squad is there any rule of thumb for sorting this out?

 

[zippo59]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

As I was reading Casale's blog I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[patsgo]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

Here's my problem with training camp. We read all these breathless descriptions about this great play or that great play made in practice. But seeing as how it's Pats players playing against other Pats players, there's always a negative side to that coin. So, for example, if James Sanders makes a great play on a ball, is that a true indication of Sanders performance or did Brady make a bad throw? If Maroney has a huge hole to run through is that indicative the new zone blocking scheme is working or the run D needs work?

Let me be clear, I'm in no way suggesting anything being reported is cause for worry, that's not my point. Only that I personally have a tough time following camp because you have no idea what the root of these good/bad plays are and it's extremely frustrating to gauge what's working and what isn't.

I'm sure everything is going great on both sides of the ball, but until we get to see our team go up against another squad is there any rule of thumb for sorting this out?

Alert alert alert, that's the game of football, good plays on both sided of the ball and if toy think the Pats will never have bad offensive plays or bad defense plays during the regular season you're in fantasy land.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

Defense is usually ahead of the offense in training camp. You have a lot more to learn as far as plays and adjustments on the offensive side of the ball.

Also, there are many times that the coaching staff are trying different things and they may be setting up the offense or defense to be in a better shot to succeed. The defense may be asked to stay in a certain base or the defense might know whether a pass or run is coming or there is a hundred other scenarios.

 

[naclone]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

Alert alert alert, that's the game of football, good plays on both sided of the ball and if toy think the Pats will never have bad offensive plays or bad defense plays during the regular season you're in fantasy land.

well I understand all that, obviously. my point is, it's difficult and frustrating to ascertain the strengths and weaknesses of the club when it's our guys going up against our guys. Now, I suppose you could argue that if we do well against another team we don't really know if that's a good performance on our part or a lousy performance on their part. but the difference is, in that situation I don't really care.

 

[naclone]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

Defense is usually ahead of the offense in training camp. You have a lot more to learn as far as plays and adjustments on the offensive side of the ball.

Also, there are many times that the coaching staff are trying different things and they may be setting up the offense or defense to be in a better shot to succeed. The defense may be asked to stay in a certain base or the defense might know whether a pass or run is coming or there is a hundred other scenarios.

These are great points. It's like spring training with baseball. you can't read anything into the pitching performances. a guy could get lit up but what you don't know is maybe the pitching coach told the guy to go out there and throw nothing but sliders.

I guess the rule of thumb is not to read too much into anything.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

It's one of those things you have to see for yourself or get much more detailed info on the play(s) in question. Take Hobbs' nice swat-away of the post-pattern thrown to Wayne in the AFCCG...that was a good play by Hobbs, not a bad throw by Manning. If you didn't see the play or have further info, you have no idea if it was a good play by Hobbs or a bad throw by Manning.

Regards,
Chris

 

[JR4]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

Maybe assume - PATs D and O are top 10 ( from last year + additions)

So
When O makes a good play give them the +
When D makes a good play give them the +

Then sleep well at night ...all will be OK

 

[BWareofDWare]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

well I understand all that, obviously. my point is, it's difficult and frustrating to ascertain the strengths and weaknesses of the club when it's our guys going up against our guys. Now, I suppose you could argue that if we do well against another team we don't really know if that's a good performance on our part or a lousy performance on their part. but the difference is, in that situation I don't really care.

You're better off hearing about what's going on in 1 on 1 drills rather than 11 on 11 team stuff. You'll get a better idea about who is having a good camp in terms of an OLineman's first step or a DLinemans burst off the ball in a pass rushing drill and checking out how a receiver beats the jam and how a DB's footwork looks in 1 on 1 drills.

 

[Patstopia]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

For me, its all about the competition. They are all hyper competitive people. None of them like to be shown up. But the main thing is, it can only make each side stronger. Having to cover TB to Welker or Moss day after day can only improve the defense and help in the training of Meriweather. The big offensive plays or defensive stops builds unity, and just being together thru the work out builds teamwork. If you really want to know how good the team is, wait until week 10 of the regular season. Until them, enjoy the football news, its been a long time coming!

 

[signbabybrady]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

It's funny you say that cause I was joking about that with the guy next to me at camp the other day. On the play that Maroney Juked out Teddy most people groaned for teddy and I jumped up and cheered the nice run just joking to be the contrarian. saying to him there two sides to every play.

bottom line though is someone is going to win the battle.

 

[PatsSteve1]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

It's hard to tell what's really going on in TC from blogs and camp reports. And it's not like the O or D is really gameplanning against each other. There's different players playing with each other and new guys out there. The only ones who really know are the coaches and players as to who really is getting the better of it.

 

[Vern]

Camp Evaluations - isloating Offense vs. Defense?

So I'm reading all these camp blogs and reports (thanks to all!) but every time I read about a great play or great stop, or bad play or whatever, I'm left wondering. If you're trying to evaluate players or the squad...

If the play worked did you just see great offense or bad defense?
If the play failed, did your offense just stutter, or did the defense shut it down?

Yes, we all can tell a dropped ball or miscommunication or blown coverage easily. But what about all the non-obvious stuff? If both offense and defense play it the way it's supposed to be played and both to the top of their ability what is the outcome supposed to be?

For example, would coaches run offensive calls against a defensive call that is supposed to be vulnerable to that play?

 

[BelichickFan]

Re: Camp Evaluations - isloating Offense vs. Defense?

Some talk about it here :

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/showthread.php?t=58002

 

[bbabin]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

A similar question was asked of Belichick in his press conference today. He basically answered that most of the plays (offense vs. defense) are scripted. In that way the coaches are able to focus primarily on specific players/positions. This makes it even less important whether the play is a completion or a defensive stop.

Also, Belichick mentioned that some veteran players will notice where the coaches are focused and know where the play is going, giving them an advantage. I can easily imagine Rodney taking a peek and blowing up a play in a way the coaches hadn't intended.

 

[nhpatsfan]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

A similar question was asked of Belichick in his press conference today. He basically answered that most of the plays (offense vs. defense) are scripted. In that way the coaches are able to focus primarily on specific players/positions. This makes it even less important whether the play is a completion or a defensive stop.

I was talking with someone who knows Ernie about this very thing today. They asked Ernie about training camp and how you knew what to look for. He said, in short, you don't. The coaches have a script and are looking for very specific things.

Me? It's working, and I'm all for it. More power to the coaching team's secrets since it's in the best interests of the team. Camp is still a great experience

 

[?????]

Re: Good D or Bad O?

Defence is usually ahead of offence because it will take a while for an offence to develop timing. Defence doesnt have to worry about that.

Its really impossible to judge though how good certain players are though until they play against other teams.

 

[Vern]

Re: Camp Evaluations - isloating Offense vs. Defense?

Oops, didn't see that one, go ahead and merge it mods.