Donovan McPuke to get his jersey retired

[jah]

I'm shocked that Bruce's jersey is retired but Andre's #56 isn't. I'm not denigrating Bruce Armstrong, but if you told me to pick one of those players to put on an all-time team I would pick Tippett every time.

Nobody has ever worn 56 since Tippett left, as far as I know.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I know he predates Belichick, but if Vinatieri had stayed with the team I'd say retire #4 as well. But that's it.

I love Vince, I love Tedy, I love Troy. But I also loved Fryar and Coates and Vincent Brown and Ty Law.

You just can't retire all the numbers you'd like to retire.

Exactly. You're fielding a 53-man roster every year, so if you're retiring more than one number every 20 years, IMO, you're doing something wrong. Probably shouldn't even be that frequent, and IMO the Pats have retired too many already.

As a general rule, I think that if there's any debate whatsoever, a number should not be retired. That should only happen if you can make a genuine case for a guy as the best player of his era *and* the face of the franchise for an extended period of time.

 

[VrabelJr]

Brady should be the only jersey retired of the Belichick era, IMO.

You could make a claim for Wilfork, and potentially some day Mayo too.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Brady should be the only jersey retired of the Belichick era, IMO.

Can they hang a hoodie in those rafters?

 

[Koma]

When you're a franchise that has experienced almost as much futility as the Jets, it makes sense to retire the jersey of one of your more productive quarterbacks in your miserable history.

Does this mean the Jets are going to retire Sanchez' number at some point in the future?

 

[TriplecHamp]

If every "Borderline" HOFer got their number retired, teams would run out of numbers. I also disagree that McNabb is a borderline HOFer. I think he was an above average NFL QB. The standard HAS to be higher than that.

If Jim Kelly is a HOFer McNabb is certainly a borderline HOFer. McNabb brought the Eagles the closest they've ever been to a championship and was the face of their franchise for a decade. Plenty of players have meant less to their teams and had their numbers retired. McNabb deserves to have his. Jay Cutler is an above average NFL QB. McNabb was 3/4th to only Brady, Manning, and Favre during his prime. All 3 of them are/will be Hall of Famers and one of them might be the Greatest of All time.

 

[Fixit]

59% Comp pct.
234 TDs
117 INTs
37,726 yards
223.2 yards per game
2.2INT % (3rd best to Brady and Rodgers)
85.6 qbr

Mcnabb's their best QB in franchise history and a pretty damn good one. He's not HOF material, but a pretty underrated QB that took a team to a lot of NFCCGs and a superbowl.

For comparison, what about a guy who's in everyone's top 10 QB list and most people's top 5.

John Elway

56.9 comp pct
300 TDs
226 INTs
51,475 yards
220 yards per game
3.1INT %
79.9 qbr

Mcnabb doesn't get his due, he was shadowed by Brady and Manning his whole career.

Holy ****, I came in here to post this exact comparison. McNabb is underrated, and Elway is way overrated.

At any rate, I liked your post, but I hate you at the same time.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I'm shocked that Bruce's jersey is retired but Andre's #56 isn't. I'm not denigrating Bruce Armstrong, but if you told me to pick one of those players to put on an all-time team I would pick Tippett every time.

Memory fades but reading Patriots Reign ~ 10 years ago I got the impression that BB was not fond of over rated Bruce Armstrong, and yes Tippett was the man.

 

[Gronkandez]

In a sport like football, which has the biggest roster size, AND restrictions on what numbers can be applied to what positions, teams should be MORE stingy about retiring numbers. McNabb, while a nice NFL player, doesn't deserve this IMO.

True, but how much demand is there for the number five? That must have factored into their decision.

 

[Fixit]

For the record, I think that retiring numbers is dumb. Jerseys, yes. Numbers, no.

 

[fnordcircle]

Memory fades but reading Patriots Reign ~ 10 years ago I got the impression that BB was not fond of over rated Bruce Armstrong, and yes Tippett was the man.

I think Bruce was probably a better team guy than Andre. Every account I've read about Andre is that he was a hard ************. But I was still sporting a bald pecker when Andre was in his prime so I don't know if he was as active in the community as Bruce was.

 

[fnordcircle]

You could make a claim for Wilfork, and potentially some day Mayo too.

Mayo is great but I don't think he's significantly better than (or in some cases even the equal to) Vrabel, McGinest, Bruschi, TJ, Vincent Brown or Andre Tippett so I just don't see the case for retiring his jersey.

Just like the HoF I think retiring jerseys is one of those things that will happen less and less as the years progress for the obvious reasons of only having 99 numbers available.

Hell, as it stands they only have 92 numbers available for their 90 man roster.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

I think Bruce was probably a better team guy than Andre. Every account I've read about Andre is that he was a hard ************. But I was still sporting a bald pecker when Andre was in his prime so I don't know if he was as active in the community as Bruce was.

Tweet us some photos?

 

[fnordcircle]

Tweet us some photos?

Your posting makes me question my sexuality.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

Retiring numbers has got to be the most dumb and stupid practice in any sport, especially in the NFL. Dumb beyond any and all reason. Not only that but if you are going to retire a number it should only be those once-in-a-lifetime individuals, not the current era fan favorites. Greatness doesn't come along that often. Retiring numbers is a 'pink hat' practice done mostly to hype the franchise in order to get kudos for a job well done.

 

[fnordcircle]

Retiring numbers has got to be the most dumb and stupid practice in any sport, especially in the NFL. Dumb beyond any and all reason. Not only that but if you are going to retire a number it should only be those once-in-a-lifetime individuals, not the current era fan favorites. Greatness doesn't come along that often. Retiring numbers is a 'pink hat' practice done mostly to hype the franchise in order to get kudos for a job well done.

Show us on this doll where the retired number touched your butthole.

 

[jmt57]

59% Comp pct.
234 TDs
117 INTs
37,726 yards
223.2 yards per game
2.2INT % (3rd best to Brady and Rodgers)
85.6 qbr

Mcnabb's their best QB in franchise history and a pretty damn good one. He's not HOF material, but a pretty underrated QB that took a team to a lot of NFCCGs and a superbowl.

For comparison, what about a guy who's in everyone's top 10 QB list and most people's top 5.

John Elway

56.9 comp pct
300 TDs
226 INTs
51,475 yards
220 yards per game
3.1INT %
79.9 qbr

Mcnabb doesn't get his due, he was shadowed by Brady and Manning his whole career.

I have been hearing many on television and radio in the last 24 hours make similar arguments, basing their point on McNabb's career stats and then comparing them to somebody who played before he did (e.g., another compared McNabb to Jim Kelly this morning).


To me what these numbers show is not how great McNabb was, but how very much the game has changed in just a few years in terms of passing.


Consider this: Kerry Collins ranks 12th all-time in passing yards and was in the top ten just a year ago before being passed last year by Drew Brees and Tom Brady. Is Collins a better QB than Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas, who have fewer career passing yards? Of course not! So why use those same career stats for comparing other players from different time periods?


I don't think people appreciate how vast the difference is in the way the game has changed when comparing players from different eras. We tend to think that since there was not much of a time difference (about fifteen years) between when McNabb played and when Elway and Kelly played that their numbers should be comparable, but that is absolutely not true. The rules and style of play are completely different, resulting in completely different sets of numbers.


To me the best way to judge a player's career is to look at how he did in comparison to his peers, those that played at the same time. To compare with players from a different era then look at how those players ranked against their contemporaries.


McNabb's yearly top ten rankings:
Passing Yards (2): 8th in 2004, 7th in 2008
Passing TD (4): 7th (2000), 7th (2001), 3rd (2004), 8th (2008)
Yards per Attempt (3): 4th ('04), 2nd ('06), 7th ('09)
Passer Rating (5): 7th ('01), 7th ('02), 4th ('04), 4th ('06), 9th ('07)


Elway's yearly top ten rankings:
Passing Yards (11): 2nd, 9th, 4th, 8th, 5th, 8th, 1st, 8th, 5th, 7th, 6th
Passing TD (8): 7th, 9th, 8th, 2nd, 6th, 4th, 4th, 9th
Yards per Attempt (9): 3rd, 10th, 8th, 8th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 7th, 4th
Passer Rating (5): 3rd, 4th, 4th, 7th, 5th


Kelly's yearly top ten rankings:
Passing Yards (6): 6th, 8th, 6th, 3rd, 3rd, 5th
Passing TD (9): 5th, 8th, 5th, 4th, 1st, 3rd, 6th, 6th, 10th
Yards per Attempt (8): 8th, 7th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 9th, 5th
Passer Rating (7): 8th, 10th, 6th, 1st, 3rd, 10th, 7th


Was McNabb good? Yes, I would say so - but don't be swayed by the talking heads who compare him to players like Elway or Kelly. McNabb is a full notch or two below, more on par with players like Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Mark Brunell, Boomer Esiason, Ken Anderson, etc. The total career stats are very deceiving.

 

[patsinthesnow]

I have been hearing many on television and radio in the last 24 hours make similar arguments, basing their point on McNabb's career stats and then comparing them to somebody who played before he did (e.g., another compared McNabb to Jim Kelly this morning).


To me what these numbers show is not how great McNabb was, but how very much the game has changed in just a few years in terms of passing.


Consider this: Kerry Collins ranks 12th all-time in passing yards and was in the top ten just a year ago before being passed last year by Drew Brees and Tom Brady. Is Collins a better QB than Joe Montana or Johnny Unitas, who have fewer career passing yards? Of course not! So why use those same career stats for comparing other players from different time periods?


I don't think people appreciate how vast the difference is in the way the game has changed when comparing players from different eras. We tend to think that since there was not much of a time difference (about fifteen years) between when McNabb played and when Elway and Kelly played that their numbers should be comparable, but that is absolutely not true. The rules and style of play are completely different, resulting in completely different sets of numbers.


To me the best way to judge a player's career is to look at how he did in comparison to his peers, those that played at the same time. To compare with players from a different era then look at how those players ranked against their contemporaries.


McNabb's yearly top ten rankings:
Passing Yards (2): 8th in 2004, 7th in 2008
Passing TD (4): 7th (2000), 7th (2001), 3rd (2004), 8th (2008)
Yards per Attempt (3): 4th ('04), 2nd ('06), 7th ('09)
Passer Rating (5): 7th ('01), 7th ('02), 4th ('04), 4th ('06), 9th ('07)


Elway's yearly top ten rankings:
Passing Yards (11): 2nd, 9th, 4th, 8th, 5th, 8th, 1st, 8th, 5th, 7th, 6th
Passing TD (8): 7th, 9th, 8th, 2nd, 6th, 4th, 4th, 9th
Yards per Attempt (9): 3rd, 10th, 8th, 8th, 7th, 9th, 10th, 7th, 4th
Passer Rating (5): 3rd, 4th, 4th, 7th, 5th


Kelly's yearly top ten rankings:
Passing Yards (6): 6th, 8th, 6th, 3rd, 3rd, 5th
Passing TD (9): 5th, 8th, 5th, 4th, 1st, 3rd, 6th, 6th, 10th
Yards per Attempt (8): 8th, 7th, 3rd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 9th, 5th
Passer Rating (7): 8th, 10th, 6th, 1st, 3rd, 10th, 7th


Was McNabb good? Yes, I would say so - but don't be swayed by the talking heads who compare him to players like Elway or Kelly. McNabb is a full notch or two below, more on par with players like Drew Bledsoe, Vinny Testaverde, Mark Brunell, Boomer Esiason, Ken Anderson, etc. The total career stats are very deceiving.

Well said, JMT. You pretty much owned me The two stats that matter a lot (yards per pass attempt and qbr) Elway crushed Mcnabb with top 10s.

What year do you feel the cutoff is for comparing stats? (when passing went nuts)

 

[jmt57]

Well said, JMT. You pretty much owned me The two stats that matter a lot (yards per pass attempt and qbr) Elway crushed Mcnabb with top 10s.

What year do you feel the cutoff is for comparing stats? (when passing went nuts)

A single year? Hmm..., I don't know; I think it's been very gradual, rather than having a specific point in time. Kurt Warner & the Greatest Show on Turf changed things circa 2001; Dan Fouts & Air Corryell did the same twenty years before that.


It's much more cumbersome and time consuming, but I have always liked to use that method of number of Top 10 and Top 5 years for comparing players; to me it really levels the playing field for a better comparison.

 

[Gronkandez]

You could make a claim for Wilfork, and potentially some day Mayo too.

Mayo? :confused3: