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His "largest fine in nfl history" record won't last long thanks to inflation. Who was the previous holder of the "largest fine in nfl history?" You don't know and I don't know and in the future few will remember Belichick once held that record.

Tarnished who's rep? Brady's rep? In a poll of nfl coaches earlier this year, Brady was voted the best quarterback in the NFL. So much for your concerns about the reps of Patriot players.

Yeah, what a major advantage it must be to have signals on tape for a game that's over...to have signals that'll mean totally different things the next time the teams play...how could that not be an advantage?

If you dont think the patriots rep was tarnished, take another look. To pretend like he was risking nothing is ubsurd. Yes there are some people who turned a blind eye and for every poll saying Brady was the best in the NFL, there was another saying Manning was, or it was a tie, etc. People get hyped up too easy, but for Brady to have had 6 straight B-grade seasons, followed by one A+ didn't magically take away the position Manning has held for a decade.
 
If you dont think the patriots rep was tarnished, take another look. To pretend like he was risking nothing is ubsurd. Yes there are some people who turned a blind eye and for every poll saying Brady was the best in the NFL, there was another saying Manning was, or it was a tie, etc. People get hyped up too easy, but for Brady to have had 6 straight B-grade seasons, followed by one A+ didn't magically take away the position Manning has held for a decade.

Proof, please, that their rep was tarnished. I'll expect you to come up with that proof around the same time you come up with the proof that the Patriots won their superbowls because they sometimes recorded their oponents signals. That'll be sometime around the 12th of never.

Where are the polls that said Manning was better?

Even if he was only the second best, that doesn't mean he couldn't win three superbowls without the Pats videotapping. How many times has a second, third, or tenth best quarterback in the nfl won a superbowl? Quite a few times.

6 straight B- seasons where he made the pro-bowl three times, led the league in tds one year and in passing yardage another year despite having a second rate receiving corps.
 
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Proof, please, that their rep was tarnished. I'll expect you to come up with that proof around the same time you come up with the proof that the Patriots won their superbowls because they sometimes recorded their oponents signals. That'll be sometime around the 12th of never.

Where are the polls that said Manning was better?

Even if he was only the second best, that doesn't mean he couldn't win three superbowls without the Pats videotapping. How many times has a second, third, or tenth best quarterback of the nfl won a superbowl? Quite a few times.

6 straight B- seasons where he made the pro-bowl three times, led the league in tds one year and in passing yardage another year despite having a second rate receiving corps.

Analyzing the fact that a team goes out of their way to cheat must mean they gained a large advantage is common sense and respecting Belichick's intelligence and what he thought was worth while. Knowing plays before they came and messing with the other teams radio is a common sense advantage. If you want to believe its not at least a 3-point one. That's okay, If i was a pats fan i'd do the same.

Yes B- seasons, with his TD pass high only at 28. Pats fans shouldnt beat up on their own recieving core either. Brady just cant make stars out of those players so he needs established talent like Moss. But for arguments sake...

How well did Jim Sorgi do with Wayne, Harrison, Gonzalez, and Clark at his disposal when Manning was gone...0 TD's thats right. Because the Colts need that great QB to make the recievers better.

NE has the oposite situation where a QB who hasn't started a game since high school and but up 2001 Brady-like #'s by relying on players like Moss to make him look better.
 
Analyzing the fact that a team goes out of their way to cheat must mean they gained a large advantage is common sense and respecting Belichick's intelligence and what he thought was worth while. Knowing plays before they came and messing with the other teams radio is a common sense advantage. If you want to believe its not at least a 3-point one. That's okay, If i was a pats fan i'd do the same.

Actually, knowing Belichick's tendencies like I do, it wouldn't surprise me if he'd do it even if it made a difference of three points over an entire SEASON. He's that competitive. Your stance that it's worth three points a game doesn't really seem to be corroborated by any facts, which you yourself say are the basis for your arguments. In fact, I'd venture you picked that number precisely because it was the margin of victory in their three Super Bowls. Say that you COULD quantify the advantage, and it was only 1 point a game, then yes, the Patriots still would have won. My point is it's futile to throw out an arbitrary number and label that as the given advantage without actual data to back it up, which I don't see.
 
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Actually, knowing Belichick's tendencies like I do, it wouldn't surprise me if he'd do it even if it made a difference of three points over an entire SEASON. He's that competitive. Your stance that it's worth three points a game doesn't really seem to be corroborated by any facts, which you yourself say are the basis for your arguments. In fact, I'd venture you picked that number precisely because it was the margin of victory in their three Super Bowls. Say that you COULD quantify the advantage, and it was only 1 point a game, then yes, the Patriots still would have won. My point is it's futile to throw out an arbitrary number and label that as the given advantage without actual data to back it up, which I don't see.

Its my opinion that it would at least be a 3-point advantage is an opinion, your right. It might have been a 7 point, maybe a 1 point, it probably changed from game to game. My point is that i feel they had a major advantage and seeing that they only won their championships by 3 points is enough ground to safely assume (true its impossible to prove any theoretical situation here) that they would have lost had they not had that advantage.
 
Analyzing the fact that a team goes out of their way to cheat must mean they gained a large advantage is common sense and respecting Belichick's intelligence and what he thought was worth while. Knowing plays before they came and messing with the other teams radio is a common sense advantage. If you want to believe its not at least a 3-point one. That's okay, If i was a pats fan i'd do the same.

Yes B- seasons, with his TD pass high only at 28. Pats fans shouldnt beat up on their own recieving core either. Brady just cant make stars out of those players so he needs established talent like Moss. But for arguments sake...

How well did Jim Sorgi do with Wayne, Harrison, Gonzalez, and Clark at his disposal when Manning was gone...0 TD's thats right. Because the Colts need that great QB to make the recievers better.

NE has the oposite situation where a QB who hasn't started a game since high school and but up 2001 Brady-like #'s by relying on players like Moss to make him look better.

They didn't know the plays before hand and they never have been punished for jamming communications. Prove they did all you claim in the superbowl or any game.

And Manning can't make stars out of his recievers either. Since Marvin Harrison has declined, Manning stats have declined.

What Sorgi game are you talking about? The one at the end of last year that the Colts were intentionally trying to loose. It's not unusual to not throw tds passes when you're trying not to.

Your contradicting yourself again. You say that Moss makes Brady look good. But then you compare what Cassel is doing with Moss to what Brady did in 2001 without Moss. Cassel proves that it's not all about Moss. If it were all about Moss, Cassel would be on pace for 50 tds not the 18 that he is on pace for. What did Moss do with Collins, Walter, and Brooks in Oakland?
 
Its my opinion that it would at least be a 3-point advantage is an opinion, your right. It might have been a 7 point, maybe a 1 point, it probably changed from game to game. My point is that i feel they had a major advantage and seeing that they only won their championships by 3 points is enough ground to safely assume (true its impossible to prove any theoretical situation here) that they would have lost had they not had that advantage.

But how can you "safely" assume something when you grant that the premise on which that assumption is based is your personal opinion, and not immediately corroborated by any data.

Let's look at the 2007 Patriots, we know for a fact that the only game in which filming took place was Week 1 against the Jets, a game they won by 24 points. (this is setting aside whether filming could help them during the game itself, a dubious proposition). They went on to win the rest of their regular season games, many by similar or even larger margins. This would seem to argue strongly against there being any provable, tangible benefit to filming, since their best statistical season came in the one we KNOW they weren't filming.

Furthermore, since you yourself admit that the advantage might not be as large as you posit, and in fact suggest that the advantage would vary from game to game (a point I concur with) what is the point in singling out the three Super Bowls as games the Patriots would have lost? In fact, let's grant your premise that there is a variable advantage gained by the taping. Wouldn't it be fair to say that such an advantage would be GREATER in games in which the Patriots had already played the team once that season (this would seem to follow, given what we know about the nature of the practice, and that teams change signals from year to year). Well in the three Super Bowl wins, the Patriots were meeting the particular opponent for the first time that season, so doesn't that seem to argue that the advantage would be minimized, if anything, in those games?

Seems it would benefit your argument more to go back through the past 6 seasons and check the games in which they played a team for the second time (division games or playoffs) where the advantage would have arguably manifested to a greater degree, and see whether even a 5 or 6 point swing would have made the difference there?
 
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But how can you "safely" assume something when you grant that the premise on which that assumption is based is your personal opinion, and not immediately corroborated by any data.

Let's look at the 2007 Patriots, we know for a fact that the only game in which filming took place was Week 1 against the Jets, a game they won by 24 points. (this is setting aside whether filming could help them during the game itself, a dubious proposition). They went on to win the rest of their regular season games, many by similar or even larger margins. This would seem to argue strongly against there being any provable, tangible benefit to filming, since their best statistical season came in the one we KNOW they weren't filming.

Furthermore, since you yourself admit that the advantage might not be as large as you posit, and in fact suggest that the advantage would vary from game to game (a point I concur with) what is the point in singling out the three Super Bowls as games the Patriots would have lost? In fact, let's grant your premise that there is a variable advantage gained by the taping. Wouldn't it be fair to say that such an advantage would be GREATER in games in which the Patriots had already played the team once that season (this would seem to follow, given what we know about the nature of the practice, and that teams change signals from year to year). Well in the three Super Bowl wins, the Patriots were meeting the particular opponent for the first time that season, so doesn't that seem to argue that the advantage would be minimized, if anything, in those games?

Seems it would benefit your argument more to go back through the past 6 seasons and check the games in which they played a team for the second time (division games or playoffs) where the advantage would have arguably manifested to a greater degree, and see whether even a 5 or 6 point swing would have made the difference there?


I agree that it would probably be more of an advantage division games, but one the less an advantage even if your facing the team for the first time. Knowing the plays coming before they do will help you out in any game.
 
They didn't know the plays before hand and they never have been punished for jamming communications. Prove they did all you claim in the superbowl or any game.

And Manning can't make stars out of his recievers either. Since Marvin Harrison has declined, Manning stats have declined.

What Sorgi game are you talking about? The one at the end of last year that the Colts were intentionally trying to loose. It's not unusual to not throw tds passes when you're trying not to.

Your contradicting yourself again. You say that Moss makes Brady look good. But then you compare what Cassel is doing with Moss to what Brady did in 2001 without Moss. Cassel proves that it's not all about Moss. If it were all about Moss, Cassel would be on pace for 50 tds not the 18 that he is on pace for. What did Moss do with Collins, Walter, and Brooks in Oakland?

Manning can't make stars...really? Harrison never had over 900 yard untill Manning showed up. He missed 6 games in 98 Manning's rookie season. And then in his first full season with manning, boom 115 catches and almost 1,700 yards, and he put up those kind of numbers for 8 straight seasons. Coincidence? No way. And last season where Harrison only caught 20 passes, Manning's numbers were almost identical to his 2006, only he threw more INT's which had nothing to do with the lack of Harriosn. So as you see, Manning could produce without him.

As for Sorgi, I was talking about the entire pre-season. I'm not saying with Moss Cassel can throw 50. Moss turned a good QB in Brady great, as reflected by the numbers, and now he's turning a bood QB in Cassel good.
 
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I agree that it would probably be more of an advantage division games, but one the less an advantage even if your facing the team for the first time. Knowing the plays coming before they do will help you out in any game.

Yeah, but it's been well established that this was not done in real-time. Probably not even in the same game. At the outside, the only case you could plausibly make was that this would help with second half adjustments in those Super Bowls, but the Patriots were outscored in the second half of two of those games (outscored by 8 by the Rams in the 2nd half, 1 by the Panthers, and they outscored the Eagles by three). Even if you want to make the case that on the balance this benefited the Patriots, I fail to see how a plausible case can be made for those specific games.
 
Manning can't make stars...really? Harrison never had over 900 yard untill Manning showed up. He missed 6 games in 98 Manning's rookie season. And then in his first full season with manning, boom 115 catches and almost 1,700 yards, and he put up those kind of numbers for 8 straight seasons. Coincidence? No way. And last season where Harrison only caught 20 passes, Manning's numbers were almost identical to his 2006, only he threw more INT's which had nothing to do with the lack of Harriosn. So as you see, Manning could produce without him.

As for Sorgi, I was talking about the entire pre-season. I'm not saying with Moss Cassel can throw 50. Moss turned a good QB in Brady great, as reflected by the numbers, and now he's turning a bood QB in Cassel good.

Harrison had 8 td catches his first season with Harbaugh and 7 td catches his first season with Manning. Where is this boom you see? Harrison got better as his career went along and so didn't Manning. If Manning can make any receiver great, Bill Polian should have signed Reche Caldwell and saved the money they spent on the unnecessary Harrison.

Since Brady came into the league, he has had 8 probowlers from his offense. In the same period, Manning has had 23 probowlers. Add the fact that Manning plays in a comfy dome with December trips to Houston, Memphis, and Jacksonville, while Brady plays outdoors in the northeast. It's no wonder that Manning's career stats are slightly better than Brady's. But Brady is the better qb as most people know. Brady has done more with less while Manning has done less with more.
 
I agree that it would probably be more of an advantage division games, but one the less an advantage even if your facing the team for the first time. Knowing the plays coming before they do will help you out in any game.

Another point to make is that New England failed to cover the spread in both SB 38 and 39. So if anything, they UNDERperformed expectations, not the other way around.
 
Another point to make is that New England failed to cover the spread in both SB 38 and 39. So if anything, they UNDERperformed expectations, not the other way around.

True but that just comes down to the Patriots performance, cheating gives you an edge you wouldn't otherwise have, but if you don't play well enough on the field or you fail to stop the other teams offense, you wont cover the spread.
 
True but that just comes down to the Patriots performance, cheating gives you an edge you wouldn't otherwise have, but if you don't play well enough on the field or you fail to stop the other teams offense, you wont cover the spread.

In this vein, I would appreciate your take on this matter:

Panthers Linked to Steroids - Los Angeles Times

Cheating gives you an edge. Your words.
 
Watson, I already mentioned the Panthers roiding up before SB38 to him, he brushed it off as nothing. Stealing signals gives you a MUCH bigger edge than steroids, according to him.
 
Watson, I already mentioned the Panthers roiding up before SB38 to him, he brushed it off as nothing. Stealing signals gives you a MUCH bigger edge than steroids, according to him.

Figured as much. Tell that to Barry Bonds.
 
Are you aware that other teams did not do the same thing as the patriots and that is a fantasy land patriots fans live in to believe their not the only ones who cheated.

You are aware that other teams DID, in fact, do the same thing that the Patriots did. As I mentioned, the Jets were caught doing it during the play-off game against the Patriots. They then LIED about having permission to do so.

I am aware that other players have said its not an issue, not want to stir up things is a good reason for that, why make enemies if you dont have too. Are you aware many players have said it a major issue. Brett Favre, LaDanian Tomlinson, anyone? Of course you'll think they're biased, but they were correct.

One coach waving at a camera does not mean the entire league knew about it and didnt care, judging by the reation they certainly cared. The huge fine which was really a slap on the wrist was for cheating, ignoring the rule book, ignoring the memo, making the league look bad, etc.

What reaction are you referring to? The one where a majority of the coaches came out and said that it was not a big deal? The reaction where a majority of former coaches who were interviewed also said it wasn't a big deal?

Also, the only thing the Pats were caught doing was breaking a rule. They were not caught cheating. I really wish you'd understand the difference.

The only ones who made the league look bad were Mangini and Goodell for totally mishandling the situation to begin with.
 
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You are correct, i mis-phrased my words but have already mentioned he then went to videotape from the tunnel. It shows his dedication to their much needed videotaping.

It wasn't MUCH NEEDED. Again, you do not understand what the videotaping was about. It was NOT about stealing signals. It was about learning coaching tendencies. Any smart person does that. Hell, that is one of the things they tell you in Texas Hold'em. You don't play your hand. You play your opposite's hand.

But you probably don't understand what that means either.

So, are you ever going to acknowledge that I answered your question about WHY coaches have gone to covering their lips when they call in plays? Or are you not man enough to do so?
 
Oh, and everyone should do what I have done...

This message is hidden because NFL_Truth is on your ignore list.
 
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