Bowers and Heyward in round 1?

[Husse]

This is exactly what confuses me. If his knee checks out, why does he fall to begin with? (And if he does have a serious knee problem and isn't extending his leg fully, why is that less of a problem for the Patriots than anybody else?)

He shouldn't fall that far if the knee checks out. But different teams have different medical staffs with different diagnosis's of players. So it just could be the patriots medical team passed him and some of the other teams staffs didn't. Gronkowski fell last year because of injury concerns and we ended up getting a great value pick getting him later than his projected talent level. If you consider Bowers a top 5 prospect and he falls to 9-10 it could very well also be a great value pick.
Or maybe the value for teams isn't in picking bowers because he is not a great fit for the scheme or maybe they have other, bigger needs that trumps his value.

Of course it will require a hard look if he does fall, but as long as he checks out for us I'm not particularly concerned with that other teams think.

Also, regarding the issue of why it's less of a problem for us, we have a lot of picks and can take chance on a couple of them. It's not the same for some other team that maybe have only 2 picks in the first 3 rounds.

While that certainly isn't standard operation procedure in the Pats organization, you could maybe make a case for it.

 

[patchick]

Solid answer, thanks. Maybe the issue is just framing -- I don't think you can reasonably say "he's going to slide because his knee is bad and I think we should take advantage of it as long as his knee checks out." But I can understand "he's going to slide because his knee is a huge question mark, and I think the Pats with their many picks are in good position to take a gamble on that kind of talent."

He shouldn't fall that far if the knee checks out. But different teams have different medical staffs with different diagnosis's of players. So it just could be the patriots medical team passed him and some of the other teams staffs didn't. Gronkowski fell last year because of injury concerns and we ended up getting a great value pick getting him later than his projected talent level. If you consider Bowers a top 5 prospect and he falls to 9-10 it could very well also be a great value pick.
Or maybe the value for teams isn't in picking bowers.

Of course it will require a hard look if he does fall, but as long as he checks out for us I'm not particularly concerned with that other teams think.

Also, regarding the issue of why it's less of a problem for us, we have a lot of picks and can take chance on a couple of them. It's not the same for some other team that maybe have only 2 picks in the first 3 rounds.

While that certainly isn't standard operation procedure in the Pats organization, you could maybe make a case for it.

 

[Wilfork#75]

Solid answer, thanks. Maybe the issue is just framing -- I don't think you can reasonably say "he's going to slide because his knee is bad and I think we should take advantage of it as long as his knee checks out." But I can understand "he's going to slide because his knee is a huge question mark, and I think the Pats with their many picks are in good position to take a gamble on that kind of talent."

I think you also have to take into account the amount of misinformation going around this time of year. You don't know how much of this is stuff put out by teams hoping he will fall to them and the media jumping all over it. If you just look at his workout some people claim he was favoring his knee and its still clearly an issue, while others say his knee looked fine but he just wasn't in great shape. I think you have to take everything at this time of year with a grain of salt because you don't know the intentions of those behind the information coming out. It wouldn't suprise me at all if he was still went top 6, but I would love him to fall all the way to 17.

 

[dryheat44]

Solid answer, thanks. Maybe the issue is just framing -- I don't think you can reasonably say "he's going to slide because his knee is bad and I think we should take advantage of it as long as his knee checks out." But I can understand "he's going to slide because his knee is a huge question mark, and I think the Pats with their many picks are in good position to take a gamble on that kind of talent."

I had the same thought during last week's thread that hoped that Ingram's knee was so troublesome that 31 teams had him off their early-round draft board, so that Belichick could swoop in and steal him at #28.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

ROLB----Cunningham, TBC
RDE - Heyward, Stroud
RILB ------------ Mayo, Fletcher
NT- Wilfork, Brace
LILB ------------ Spikes, Guyton
LDE - Warren, Wright
LOLB----Bowers, Ninko, Moore

bold indicates starters

Depending on how fast Bowers and Heyward picked up their new positions, this front wall could be very tough to run on.

 

[b72s]

Nfl network stated
Bowers may need microfracture surgery

Given that and a poor pro day it is all about the medical and I kind of get quesy spending a high pick with these issues.

But two on Defensive side of ball in first round is fine by me.

OL/Wr/RB in 2nd round

 

[supafly]

Nfl network stated
Bowers may need microfracture surgery

Given that and a poor pro day it is all about the medical and I kind of get quesy spending a high pick with these issues.

But two on Defensive side of ball in first round is fine by me.

OL/Wr/RB in 2nd round

This would work just fine, and is what most of us want.

I agree entirely with your positions of picks taken, and even WR Cobb is starting to really appeal to me lately.

 

[MaineMan]

He shouldn't fall that far if the knee checks out. But different teams have different medical staffs with different diagnosis's of players. So it just could be the patriots medical team passed him and some of the other teams staffs didn't. Gronkowski fell last year because of injury concerns and we ended up getting a great value pick getting him later than his projected talent level. If you consider Bowers a top 5 prospect and he falls to 9-10 it could very well also be a great value pick.
Or maybe the value for teams isn't in picking bowers because he is not a great fit for the scheme or maybe they have other, bigger needs that trumps his value.

Of course it will require a hard look if he does fall, but as long as he checks out for us I'm not particularly concerned with that other teams think.

Also, regarding the issue of why it's less of a problem for us, we have a lot of picks and can take chance on a couple of them. It's not the same for some other team that maybe have only 2 picks in the first 3 rounds.

While that certainly isn't standard operation procedure in the Pats organization, you could maybe make a case for it.

Great explanation and logic, but I'm not sure Gronk is necessarily your best example. Though it may have been close between him and Gresham, ranking-wise, he was arguably at least the "2nd best TE" in the draft. The 2nd best TE in any draft being the 2nd TE off the board at #42 and taken by a team that had to trade up to snag him ahead of the Ravens doesn't seem like a "fall" at all to me. Unless the assumption is that Cinci only took Gresham over Gronk at #21 because of those injury concerns or that one of the intervening teams was serious enough about getting a TE (apparently they weren't) that they would have taken Gronk instead of the player they did (at a different position) had it not been for Gronk's injury concerns.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

I would love for the chips to fall this way. You all know I am a fan of heyward @ the end of the 1st or early 2nd if possible. I think our goal has to be to become a better run-D before we can become better at getting to the passer. Bowers and heyward contribute to our run D day 1 IMVHO. We may have to wait a little to see a return of investment on 3rd downs, but ultimately I believe both are 3 down players in the very near future.

Bowers will slip out of the top 10. If there are ANY knee questions, for a top 10 team to select him will open that gm or talent evaluator to a ton of scrutiny by their boss if he doesn't pan out. I think you can cross off any team that has had a regime change in the top 10, those guys want the safest pick possible. I think Husse is correct, the pats have the ammo to take a chance on a top 5 talent if they choose to. One who other teams may be afraid of due to the circumstances. BB is usually very conservative in the 1st round, so I have my doubts this will happen. But if Bowers falls far enough BB may not be able to turn away from that kind of value.

If Quinn is gone by 10 than the redskins could be a likely trading partner as they have no 3rd round pick with multiple holes to fill. I would just hope he falls to 12 and then trade with the vikings. Whom also have no 3rd round pick and may need to fill several holes. In the latter we only move 5 spots which seems more likely and we get possibly the most complete OLB in this draft. All this is of course predicated on the fact that we can still get our DE in heyward @ 28 or 33.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Nfl network stated
Bowers may need microfracture surgery

Given that and a poor pro day it is all about the medical and I kind of get quesy spending a high pick with these issues.

But two on Defensive side of ball in first round is fine by me.

OL/Wr/RB in 2nd round

Question one: When did NFL Network's medical staff examine Bowers?

Question two: Has Bowers made any visits to individual teams where their medical & training staff could conduct a full evaluation?

Question three: If Bowers medical re-check in Indianapolis isn't until next week, and the answers to questions one and two are "no," why is anyone paying these rumors any heed?

 

[West Philly Patriot]

I just heard McShay say on espn that he could see bowers going as high as 6 or falling as far as 20. Kiper disagreed saying he couldn't see him falling past 16 to the jags. But thinks he could likely will go to the vikes @ 12.

That is reasonable trade-up territory as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Husse]

Great explanation and logic, but I'm not sure Gronk is necessarily your best example. Though it may have been close between him and Gresham, ranking-wise, he was arguably at least the "2nd best TE" in the draft. The 2nd best TE in any draft being the 2nd TE off the board at #42 and taken by a team that had to trade up to snag him ahead of the Ravens doesn't seem like a "fall" at all to me. Unless the assumption is that Cinci only took Gresham over Gronk at #21 because of those injury concerns or that one of the intervening teams was serious enough about getting a TE (apparently they weren't) that they would have taken Gronk instead of the player they did (at a different position) had it not been for Gronk's injury concerns.

I knew someone was going call me on the Gronkowski comparison.
I'm not that familiar with the details, since I'm pretty new to most things Draft (and most things NFL outside of games), not much coverage over here. I just used it as an example because it's really the only one I can remember.

But atleast it served as a hypothetical scenario, which was really it's purpose anyway.

 

[MaineMan]

I knew someone was going call me on the Gronkowski comparison.
I'm not that familiar with the details, since I'm pretty new to most things Draft (and most things NFL outside of games), not much coverage over here. I just used it as an example because it's really the only one I can remember.

But atleast it served as a hypothetical scenario, which was really it's purpose anyway.

Frankly, I can't remember a more appropriate example either - but then, with disturbingly increasing frequency, I often have trouble remembering where I left my glasses when I'm wearing them.

Anyway, your argument was strong enough without an example, sooo . . .

 

[Husse]

Frankly, I can't remember a more appropriate example either - but then, with disturbingly increasing frequency, I often have trouble remembering where I left my glasses when I'm wearing them.

Anyway, your argument was strong enough without an example, sooo . . .

Well, I've always been taught to use and example when I state something. It proves hypothetical reasoning with actual facts, so it simplifies things for the most part since hypothetical discussions can run on for ages.

 

[MaineMan]

Well, I've always been taught to use and example when I state something. It proves hypothetical reasoning with actual facts, so it simplifies things for the most part since hypothetical discussions can run on for ages.

Really? I'm shocked!

 

[Patriot Missile]

Conflicting reports on Da’Quan Bowers’ knee continue | ProFootballTalk

Finally some news on Bowers. Should know more tomorrow.

 

[Husse]

Finally some news on Bowers. Should know more tomorrow.

Well, I'll say it was more no new than news. He said, she said and all that..

As far as the "no doctor has told us" could just be code for "we haven't spoken to any doctors".

 

[Patriot Missile]

Well, I'll say it was more no new than news. He said, she said and all that..

As far as the "no doctor has told us" could just be code for "we haven't spoken to any doctors".

Considering all the doom and gloom regarding Bowers over the last few weeks I found it a little interesting that one doctor may have checked it out ok. It may have been informitive to some that he will be getting medically checked on Friday in Indianapolis and the results will be out to all the teams.

 

[tricktak]

I've actually changed my stance on Bowers quite a bit after watching him more. If he indeed does fall to 17 they need to take him or even if he's there at 12 or 14, maybe they trade up for him. Bowers is the type of player that they would value a ton there. He has a freakish athleticism reminiscent of Julius Peppers. Everyone knows how much the patriots valued peppers and saw him as a victure at outside linebacker for years to come. It will be awfully hard for them to look past a talent like Bowers if he does fall. Even if they do like Mark Ingram, there's a legit possibility Ingram will still be there at 28. I don't see Heyward as someone they would draft. I think somebody like Terrell McClain or Kenrick Ellis would be a couple of names they would look to to add to their defensive line.

 

[MaineMan]

I've actually changed my stance on Bowers quite a bit after watching him more. If he indeed does fall to 17 they need to take him or even if he's there at 12 or 14, maybe they trade up for him. Bowers is the type of player that they would value a ton there. He has a freakish athleticism reminiscent of Julius Peppers. Everyone knows how much the patriots valued peppers and saw him as a victure at outside linebacker for years to come. It will be awfully hard for them to look past a talent like Bowers if he does fall. Even if they do like Mark Ingram, there's a legit possibility Ingram will still be there at 28. I don't see Heyward as someone they would draft. I think somebody like Terrell McClain or Kenrick Ellis would be a couple of names they would look to to add to their defensive line.

I didn't know that. Where did that come from?