Bedard on Pats DB Coaching

[ausbacker]

Until this season, the Secondary has arguably been the weakness of this team since 2010. That means it's either scheme, talent or coaching. It's not unreasonable to believe it's coaching because the Secondaries this team have put out before the acquisitions of Talib, Revis and Browner have been pitiful.

Yes, you can argue talent and it is a good point but all three have played beyond expectation with the Patriots. There has to be some merit to Bedard's comments because our home-growns technically lack compared to these guys (outside of McCourty).

 

[Oswlek]

There has to be some merit to Bedard's comments because our home-growns technically lack compared to these guys (outside of McCourty).

This statement demands verification. What evidence do you have that NE's home grown DBs are making mistakes that are purely technical mistakes and not related to ability?

 

[ausbacker]

This statement demands verification. What evidence do you have that NE's home grown DBs are making mistakes that are purely technical mistakes and not related to ability?

Do you not watch the same games that I do? Have you not seen an appreciable difference between the trio of Browner, Revis and Talib compared to Patriots drafted Corners?

Mental mistakes are technical mistakes too, you know. Giving up body position, biting on double moves etc, they're all technical.

 

[Oswlek]

Do you not watch the same games that I do? Have you not seen an appreciable difference between the Browner, Revis and Talib compared to Patriots drafted Corners?

Mental mistakes are technical mistakes too, you now. Giving up body position, biting on double moves etc, they're all technical.

This proves absolutely nothing. All you've demonstrated is that Talib, Browner and Revis are better than anyone NE has drafted lately, which isn't contested by anyone. You still have to validate the statement that NE's homegrowns have more ability that isn't showing due to poorly coached technique.

It's possible, of course, I don't think anyone would deny that. But to state it so brazenly requires evidence.

FWIW, nearly every CB in the NFL is an athletic freak, so mental aptitude is much more a portion of their "ability" than it is technical play.

 

[ausbacker]

This proves absolutely nothing. All you've demonstrated is that Talib, Browner and Revis are better than anyone NE has drafted lately, which isn't contested by anyone. You still have to validate the statement that NE's homegrowns have more ability that isn't showing due to poorly coached technique.

FWIW, nearly every CB in the NFL is an athletic freak, mental aptitude is much more a portion of their "ability" than it is technical play.

Why can't the Patriots consistently develop Cornerbacks of a high quality?

 

[Oswlek]

Why can't the Patriots consistently develop Cornerbacks of a high quality?

I have no idea, but I'm not the one making a definitive statement.

 

[ausbacker]

I have no idea, but I'm not the one making a definitive statement.

Fair enough. I enjoy discussions where one side doesn't hold themselves accountable to the standards they set for the other.

It's simple Oswlek. It's talent, scheme or technique. I think it's a mixture of all three but not an equal mixture.

1. I don't subscribe to it being a talent issue because the Patriots allocate enough resources to the position and generally toward players of decent draft caliber.
2. I don't subscribe to it being the scheme because Belichick is a fine defensive coach and is known to put his players in positions to succeed.
3. That leaves technique and there has been an observable difference between Revis, Browner and Talib compared to the home-growns. This is where I do accept talent as a mitigating factor in technique.

 

[RayClay]

Do you not watch the same games that I do? Have you not seen an appreciable difference between the trio of Browner, Revis and Talib compared to Patriots drafted Corners?

Mental mistakes are technical mistakes too, you know. Giving up body position, biting on double moves etc, they're all technical.

So, Tampa Bauy developed Talib into a 6 foot one 1st round cornerback? Jests developed Revis into a #14 pick in the first round incredibly talented QB?

Denver developed UDFA Browner by waiving him after he broke his arm, causing him to go to cnada and become an all star, then go to seahawks, get suspended and come here? I'm all for the school of hard knocks but isn't it easier to explain you get better talent in the first round and some guys take time?

I think we drafted a bunch of non-premier or injured CBs because we don't have picks in the top 2/3rds of the 1st round, so we try to get more picks, or take some risks (Dowling, who is an athletic, though never healthy, big CB).

Now as far as coaching up Bs on BBs part, we did pretty well with nno high picks and lots of injuries to coach up guys like Randall Gay, Poteat, and Samuel to win a championship.

How did Tampa coach up talib so well that they gave him away?

The entire story of the franchise doesn't really change week to week. we're the most consistently successful team in decades and we always pick low. That's a given.

If you get a top talent out of the first round, it's likely because they have character problems (dennard has talent) small school (Samuel) or injury concerns (Dowling and he was still almost 1st round).

Cornerback takes the most athletic talent of any position. The Pats have successfully converted at least two fairly high picked CBs to safety, mostly because they were good players who weren't quite good enough athletically to be starting corners.

 

[RayClay]

Fair enough. I enjoy discussions where one side doesn't hold themselves accountable to the standards they set for the other.

It's simple Oswlek. It's talent, scheme or technique. I think it's a mixture of all three but not an equal mixture.

1. I don't subscribe to it being a talent issue because the Patriots allocate enough resources to the position and generally toward players of decent draft caliber.
2. I don't subscribe to it being the scheme because Belichick is a fine defensive coach and is known to put his players in positions to succeed.
3. That leaves technique and there has been an observable difference between Revis, Browner and Talib compared to the home-growns. This is where I do accept talent as a mitigating factor in technique.

I'll leave my position at this. Who was the last first round pick the Patriots had at cornerback? I believe Ty Law at #23. Safeties don't require that level of ability, they require different skills.

We let other teams spend high draft picks we didn't have, then picked up the players. Browner is obviously without category.

 

[RayClay]

This proves absolutely nothing. All you've demonstrated is that Talib, Browner and Revis are better than anyone NE has drafted lately, which isn't contested by anyone. You still have to validate the statement that NE's homegrowns have more ability that isn't showing due to poorly coached technique.

It's possible, of course, I don't think anyone would deny that. But to state it so brazenly requires evidence.

FWIW, nearly every CB in the NFL is an athletic freak, so mental aptitude is much more a portion of their "ability" than it is technical play.

I hate to use a baseball analogy, but reaction and brains and practice can make a good 2nd 3rd baseman, brooks robinson was slow as hell on the basepaths. You cannot play shortstop adequately without having superior athletic ability. Cornerback is the same. I don't know how anyone could look at Revis blanket someone and think that was taught. technique and practice are on top, but a Revis is born. Safety is different.

 

[ausbacker]

@RayClay, you bring up some fair points. I agree with many of the points you have made but I also believe the mental aspect of elite sport is what separates many of these players. The ability to grasp and execute technique is a mental process followed by a physical one.

 

[RayClay]

@RayClay, you bring up some fair points. I agree with many of the points you have made but I also believe the mental aspect of elite sport is what separates many of these players. The ability to grasp and execute technique is a mental process followed by a physical one.

I believe that's much more important at safety, for instance which is why McCourty excels there and struggled at cornerback.

Of course, I'm no expert, but it is my belief you need to be relaxed and fluid naturally to be a top corner, with some speed, of course. Of course, being a student of the game and preparation is necessary to be excellent, but you can't teach that athletic ability IMO.

As soon as I watched Asante, I saw he had that knack, or whatever. Of course good coaching helped and he turned out to be a jerk. I thought Wheatley had some too, but his wrists were chronically deformed or something. Hobbs was supposed to be a nickel, and that's a different skill set (see Arrington). Ryan has good ball skills and aggressiveness, but if he had the rest of the package, he'd be a 1st, not a third IMO. Maybe he will be a safety, or a backup. Maybe Dennard or Butler have it.

Just MHO. I think you can hide good effort guys who aren't natural, but to cover one on one, they are exposed. I'm not discounting great technique, just don't think you can fake the innate ability at that one position.

 

[RayClay]

FWIW my namesake and Mike Haynes #16 and #5 round one respectively. Developed an 8th rounder Lippett into a good CB with skills, while playing opposite Clayborn.

They use a lot more DBs today and i think our defense was misplaced in that game as GB guessed exactly what we were going to do and we didn't adjust at all.

 

[Oswlek]

Fair enough. I enjoy discussions where one side doesn't hold themselves accountable to the standards they set for the other.

It's simple Oswlek. It's talent, scheme or technique. I think it's a mixture of all three but not an equal mixture.

1. I don't subscribe to it being a talent issue because the Patriots allocate enough resources to the position and generally toward players of decent draft caliber.
2. I don't subscribe to it being the scheme because Belichick is a fine defensive coach and is known to put his players in positions to succeed.
3. That leaves technique and there has been an observable difference between Revis, Browner and Talib compared to the home-growns. This is where I do accept talent as a mitigating factor in technique.

If you read through this thread, you'll see I'm in the corner of those suggesting there is something to the second year drop off phenomenon. I've also conceded the coaching could very well be an issue.

But when you state it so definitively like you did in your OP, that requires evidence. This isn't about holding anyone to unusual standards, it is just simple discussion requirements.

Personally, I find #2 and #3 contradictory. Bill is an outstanding defensive coach who puts players in position to succeed, yet he is unable to recognize poor technique taught by one of his coaches? Or he sees it, but is incapable of fixing it?

I just don't see how you can reconcile those statements.

I also don't think that you can reasonable compare Talib and Revis, two first rounders that are almost unanimously considered top 5 CBs, to NE's collection of guys and conclude that technique is what separates them. I mean, of course technique will falter when you are out of position, but how do you untangle technique from ability? Isn't it more likely that those guys are just better players?

 

[RobertWeathers]

Its not a teaching issue- Its a talent issue. When BB gets quality DB talent they excel in this system. When he doesn't they under-perform.

I'll take a swag at the picks and their success
2014- Jemea Thomas- 6th round. Gone

2013- Ryan and Harmon, both 3rd round. Both are solid contributors-not ProBowlers

2012- Tavon Wilson (2nd round) Ebner (6th) Dennard (7th)- Wilson is a fringe roster guy, with good ball skills but horrible in coverage, Ebner is ST/ok SS and Dennard is a solid pick but more nickle/dime DB.

2011- Ras-I Dowling (2nd) Malcom Williams (7th) - Both did not produce.

2010- DMC (1st) - ProBowl CB that became a (should be) ProBowl FS. We can all agree that he was limited in MtM coverage but was a great pick for a FS.

2009- Chung (2nd) Butler (2nd). In retrospect, Chung didn't evolve into the player they had hoped for until 4 years later. Butler...because he got hurt in 2012 and 2013 and did not play STs he was behind Arrington (great FA pickup). Clearly he is a solid nickel/dime DB- not elite. Did the teaching Butler received here help him in Indy? Maybe?

2008- Wheatley (2nd) and Willhite (4th) - Both are nickel/dime guys who did not have sustained success here or anywhere else.

By my count...13 drafts...1 PB...6 contributors....6 non-contributors (not including Arrington who was a FA)

Going way back, you could argue that Meriweather, Willie (dube) Andrews, Hobbs, James Sanders were all decent picks.

Overall, BB's record in drafting and developing DBs who have talent is ok.

IE- Bedard is wrong.

 

[Nunchucks]

I have a hard time believing that Belichick would stand by and watch the DBs be incorrectly coached.

 

[PatsFan2]

This thread speaks volumes about our DB situation after Revis and Browner we have nothing worth a dam at CB. With the 32 pick in the 2015 NFL Draft the N.E. Patriots select CB _____ !
What happened to Malcom Butler I think he's better than both Dennard and Ryan on the outside. Ryan gets beaten like a rented mule on just any kind of move. Our CB's aside from Revis and Butler are just too stiff in the hips that is why they cannot mirror WR's.

 

[luuked]

This thread speaks volumes about our DB situation after Revis and Browner we have nothing worth a dam at CB. With the 32 pick in the 2015 NFL Draft the N.E. Patriots select CB _____ !
What happened to Malcom Butler I think he's better than both Dennard and Ryan on the outside. Ryan gets beaten like a rented mule on just any kind of move. Our CB's aside from Revis and Butler are just too stiff in the hips that is why they cannot mirror WR's.

Yeah..

Dennard, Butler, Arrington and Ryan are "nothing worth a damn". Right. You should watch some of the games from 2011 and see how Sterling Moore, Idhegibo and Edelman (!!) looked as our options in the secondary.

 

[PatsFan2]

Yeah..

Dennard, Butler, Arrington and Ryan are "nothing worth a damn". Right. You should watch some of the games from 2011 and see how Sterling Moore, Idhegibo and Edelman (!!) looked as our options in the secondary.

The point I was making is take Revis off this Team and those sucky old Secondary days are back again, Defense cannot get off the field. This Team will have to break the bank for Revis in 2015 or some other Team will. Revis will have Teams in the FA CB market at their knees. Who would you rather keep long term Revis or McCourty? I think you know what my answer is.

 

[Ivan]

Why can't the Patriots consistently develop Cornerbacks of a high quality?

Who does?

And don't say Seattle because their success is newfound and doesn't fit the label of "consistent" that you asked for.

Are Revis and Browner significantly better than the other Patriot CB's,no qestion about it, is it talent or teaching, I would say talent because I have a really hard time believing that Bedard has a better eye for technique than Belichick, and I can't imagine Belichick and Patricia allowing a DB coach to consistently teach poor techniques and keep their job.