Giving up in the First Half

blackglass3 said:

@luuked you can defend it all you want and be confused until your heart is content. At home, with two time outs and 1:40 left you have your whole offense, especially after you just ran off 10 points. You try and score points there, you don't settle for a halftime tie with a division rival and a bye week on the line.

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“Just ran off 10 points”. Hahaha!

3 of those points came off a long, run-filled drive. Which they had no time for at that point in the half. The other 7 came off a luck ball to Dorsett. The NE passing attack was terrible in the first half.

Bill makes some weird decisions sometimes. When they work he's a genius. When they don't people often look the other way.

This was a terrible decision that Bill should be criticized for. I can't imagine ANY team doing that, even the worst offense in the league. The players deserve criticism but it's tough to criticize them when the coach quit before halftime.

Could not agree more with the OP and @PatsDeb

Not going for points at the end of the half, not running behind a FB more, and our DPOY having a god awful game when things mattered most are the things I'm most furious about today.

JayNM said:

I get it. "They didn't trust the offense"

And it still the decision that pisses me off the most even one day later. I will explain why and yes, this is my form of venting BECAUSE IM PISSED

The Middle 8 is one the most important parts of the game and BB knows this ( The Middle Eight )

At that time in the game, we had scored 10 points consecutively. We had all the momentum and Dolphins just had a bad drive. At that time,statistically , we could've gone to halftime with A MUCH BETTER winning percentage based on having, potentially, at least 1 field made before half AND getting the ball back, PLUS we would be, mentally, in a MUCH better place to start the game.

Whatever message he wanted to send to the offense, IT WAS NOT WORTH NOT GOING FOR BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME. You DONT take points for granted in the National Football League. It's DUMB. We were on the verge on being ahead probabilistically AND psychologically

If you think it was warranted, let me tell you that I disagree: There is no place on earth that AN OFFENSE lead by the GREATEST QUARTERBACK OF ALL TIME, no matter how badly he's playing at the moment, is SUCH A RISK, that you give up points.

But worse of all what aggravates the situation , to me, A LOT is the explanation made by BB. Because it was ********. BB understands enough of Game Theory (proven unquestionably after the Seahawks game) to say he decided to give up AFTER the first play was unsuccesfull.

He DECIDED to give up BEFORE the draw play. He let the Dolphins waste 40 seconds to punt, because HE HAD GIVEN UP. Maybe he could change his mind If he got the first down the first play.... BUT THEN YOU DONT ****ING CALL A DRAW THROUGH THE MIDDLE.

Vent OVER.

I understood the decision at the time, but i was weird. The more i think about it, the angrier i get.

A lot of people played poorly and deserved to be criticized. But this error is fundamentally different because it was an RATIONAL CONSTRUCTED MISTAKE, and not made in the spur of the moment of a play, which isn't as rational. And here is a fact about rational mistakes, it only happens if you have your facts WRONG

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I share your anger and frustration BUT
if you look at this objectively- Every minute during the game should be considered equally in its importance. This is the attitude that should be instilled in his players.

BB with his strategy yesterday not only sent his team the message that he does not trust the offense- AT ALL but also that some parts of the game you can coast and not give 100% effort for 60 minutes.

Extremely un Belichek like. This is why I am 99% sure the Pats unfortunately will lose next week. The players on offense KNOW he does not trust their abilities and he does not expect them to play all out the whole game.

This is as if BB had a brain freeze and is such a losing mentality that it will be carried over into next game.

I know many will be offended that I dare to question BB"s strategy, because I am just a fan. But clearly BB IS actually human and can make huge mistakes.

varjao said:

This is going on for a while, 2 or 3 seasons including this one, I don't know what they are thinking.

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3 SBs in those seasons. What are they thinking ?

luuked said:

3 SBs in those seasons. What are they thinking ?

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Its great that they won 2 of the past 3 SB's. That does not mean BB and his staff are immune to making big mistakes which hurt the team.

BB's classical line applies.

Last season or even last week do not mean anything. Play and coach in the present and do not rest on laurels.

Chevrolet said:

Its great that they won 2 of the past 3 SB's. That does not mean BB and his staff are immune to making big mistakes which hurt the time.

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It is not "great". It is ****ing amazing. Seriously get some perspective and maybe realize that the coaching staff knows a lot more about situational football than you.

zipster9 said:

I have noticed that after 8 games, the Patriots did not seem to be as aggressive, offensively, anymore. Not sure what is going on.

Maybe it is a time for change (players, mgmt).

BTW - the impact of Niners/Patriots trading for Sanders/Sanu is lopsided.

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This line is getting old because it assumes the Broncos would want to be a trade partner with the Patriots.

If our defense does its job on the last drive, the game is over and nobody is talking about the end of the 1st half.

It's obvious BB didn't trust the offense, it just gave 7 points to Miami earlier in the game..we lost the game because the offense wasn't good enough, the defense wasn't good enough and we were outplayed. If we would have fumbled or threw an interception that led to another Miami score, people would have been killing the decision. It's a typical second guess after the fact.

luuked said:

It is not "great". It is ****ing amazing. Seriously get some perspective and maybe realize that the coaching staff knows a lot more about situational football than you.

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Yes it is amazing. The fun part about being a fan is that we can second guess all time great coaches like BB. Rarely we will be right and they will be wrong.

Chevrolet said:

Yes it is amazing. The fun part about being a fan is that we can second guess all time great coaches like BB. Rarely we will be right and they will be wrong.

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I don't have an issue with second guessing.

My issue is when people start to talk about how it makes "no sense" or how it was a "stupid idea|. It is up to you -- or anyone else -- to decide if you were as conservative in that situation as the coach but pretending there is no reason behind what they did is just idiotic. Most are working backwards from the result instead of trying to make sense of "why" they did something.

The result of the game should have zero bearing on the evaluation of decisions. And given how completely useless the offense was in the first half -- except for one 50 yard play to Dorsett -- it makes all the sense in the world that you don't want to spot the other team a chance to get another 3 points in a tight game.

luuked said:

The worst case scenario is giving the ball up and not going into half at even. You can disagree with the conservative approach thats fine but calling it idiotic or a ****up just shows your limited understanding of risk and how to evaluate your own team.

The offense did jack **** in the first half. They got one drive in an entire half of play based on a low percentage 50 yard play to Dorsett. The primary objective was to make sure the situation didn't get worse like it did against the Bills just a week ago.

If you were to actually stop being irrational and think the options through you'd see the logic in it but no we have to find some low hanging fruit to blame.

There is nothing bad about making sure you don't give another team a chance to score. It is the intelligent thing to do. Whether you call that coward or not doesn't matter. You always wanna play the right odds.

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I agree that idiotic is way too strong a word, but your view doesn't take momentum into account. A TD, a defensive three and out, possession to start the second half. One objective of deferring after winning the toss is to get the ball and score on each side of the half. That can break a team. BB gave that chance up and played it safe instead.

ashley1992 said:

If our defense does its job on the last drive, the game is over and nobody is talking about the end of the 1st half.

It's obvious BB didn't trust the offense, it just gave 7 points to Miami earlier in the game..we lost the game because the offense wasn't good enough, the defense wasn't good enough and we were outplayed. If we would have fumbled or threw an interception that led to another Miami score, people would have been killing the decision. It's a typical second guess after the fact.

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I will bet that if you sat down for a cup of coffee today with BB, he would be the first to tell you that he made coaching mistakes yesterday.
BB obviously knows what he is doing...but he would tell you he did a bad job coaching yesterday and would admit that some of his

ashley1992 said:

If our defense does its job on the last drive, the game is over and nobody is talking about the end of the 1st half.

It's obvious BB didn't trust the offense, it just gave 7 points to Miami earlier in the game..we lost the game because the offense wasn't good enough, the defense wasn't good enough and we were outplayed. If we would have fumbled or threw an interception that led to another Miami score, people would have been killing the decision. It's a typical second guess after the fact.

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It is a fair point about the defense not doing its job on the last drive. BUT the dolphins were moving the ball at ease the first half and they have scored a ton of points against multiple teams the past 4 weeks or so. It seems likely that to beat them the Pats would have to take every possible scoring opportunity which was possibly going to turn into a shoot out. Its not second guessing because many thought it was a bad move at the time it happened. It was playing extremely conservatively and usually against a potent and high scoring offense like the Dolphins it will come back to bite you.

TomPatriot said:

I agree that idiotic is way too strong a word, but your view doesn't take momentum into account. A TD, a defensive three and out, possession to start the second half. One objective of deferring after winning the toss is to get the ball and score on each side of the half. That can break a team. BB gave that chance up and played it safe instead.

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And if they were cutting through the defense like they did against the Bills I would have agreed with you. But lets keep in mind that like 70% of that 7 point drive was a 50yd play to Dorsett into close-to-double coverage.

It really didn't feel like there was any "momentum" on our side even if we scored 10 unanswered. But again, I don't have an issue with anyone trying to be more aggressive. It is just the refusal to acknowledge that there was sound reason to what they did that makes me frustrated.

You get the ball back and the game is tied. No reason to dig a deeper hole.

luuked said:

No they didn't. What is this idiotic narrative ?

They had 3 TOs and about a minute to get at least into FG range. Please plot it out for me what the difference is between taking the TO there and taking it after a first successful play except for leaving next to no time for the other team on the clock ?

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Follow the train of logic:

1.45 (time the dolphins 4th down, +-)
Timeout

You have 1.40 and 2 time outs once you get the ball

Now, bc you are trying to get in field range with little time, you are throwing the ball or getting to the sideline so that you can stop the clock. NEITHER was in his mind when you draw up the middle. It's a run-out strategy.

So, by the time we reach the 1 minute mark, WHICH is the starting point of real drive, we could have:

- Gained some yardage throw passes. This is a 2 minute drill. We PRACTICE this HARD.

- Because we are throwing, we only lose some seconds on the clock. Therefore, by having more time, we could run more plays.

- Figure out what kind of personell they were using if we changed ours in the 2 minute drill (remember time stops for each play if we throw - More plays equal more information equals better decision making)

- Decide what is the best way once we get closer to the desired point (now would be the time to mesh in runs)

Those are some of the things that we could've gained by using a time out. By deciding to not do anything, anything we would've gained between 1.40 and 1.00 is impossible. At the cost of 1 time out.

If you know anything about Game Theory, this is basic strategic thinking, you bring to the present things that are assured to happen in the future, so you have more time with information to decide the better strategy. What have we gained by draining the clock? Nothing.
Im sure Bill had that in Microeconomics.


And while you could resort to this affirmation:

What about their passing attack gave you the impression they could be successful without giving the ball back to Miami with time on the clock and TOs in their hand ?

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Tom Brady has 20 years of experience, more winning drives than i can count, considered here the greatest player alive.

Are you saying that he is un-able to NOT THROW A PICK in 2 minute drill against one of the worst secondaries in the NFL? Are you saying that him screwing up this big is such a likely scenario that overthrones the fact that we could be ahead for 2 scores by the time they get the ball?

If turnovers become more likely than moving the chains - at any point for any Quarterback , -are you going to defend him staying for more years? Because it's a damn low ceiling

And if you say they should have run it then this is exactly what they did. This entire critique of that sequence exposes people that don't understand football so nicely I love that it happened.

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And this right here shows why you are an incredible prick. I dont need to keep parroting guys that i follow on twitter to pretend i know something about football, unlike YOU.

I know about football and more and that's why I know you are a basic *****

luuked said:

You get the ball back and the game is tied. No reason to dig a deeper hole.

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You get the ball back and maybe they’re up by 3 or 7 with a shot at breaking the Dolphins backs by going up by 10 or 14, making it a two score game.

I wonder if Josh thought the O could score at the end of the first half.

Pats employed the exact same strategy that the Seahawks did in Super Bowl 49 when they had the ball at their own 20 right before the half. Ran the ball on first down - if it failed they would have run out the clock and gone into half down 14-7. Instead they gained 19 yards so they called a TO and ended up driving down for a TD.

The Pats had not given up until after the first play was a dud and actually lost yards. When they stopped the Dolphins there was a reasonable expectation that they would get the ball back around the 40 and have all 3 TO's with about a minute left. Unfortunately the punt was net 55 yards and they were back at the 25. The Dolphins had all their TO's remaining so going for it came with some risk. I personally would have preferred a screen or a safe pass to get the drive started and would have been willing to be more aggressive but the path they took is completely logical and something they have been doing for years.

JayNM said:

I get it. "They didn't trust the offense"

And it still the decision that pisses me off the most even one day later. I will explain why and yes, this is my form of venting BECAUSE IM PISSED

The Middle 8 is one the most important parts of the game and BB knows this ( The Middle Eight )

At that time in the game, we had scored 10 points consecutively. We had all the momentum and Dolphins just had a bad drive. At that time,statistically , we could've gone to halftime with A MUCH BETTER winning percentage based on having, potentially, at least 1 field made before half AND getting the ball back, PLUS we would be, mentally, in a MUCH better place to start the game.

Whatever message he wanted to send to the offense, IT WAS NOT WORTH NOT GOING FOR BEST POSSIBLE OUTCOME. You DONT take points for granted in the National Football League. It's DUMB. We were on the verge on being ahead probabilistically AND psychologically

If you think it was warranted, let me tell you that I disagree: There is no place on earth that AN OFFENSE lead by the GREATEST QUARTERBACK OF ALL TIME, no matter how badly he's playing at the moment, is SUCH A RISK, that you give up points.

But worse of all what aggravates the situation , to me, A LOT is the explanation made by BB. Because it was ********. BB understands enough of Game Theory (proven unquestionably after the Seahawks game) to say he decided to give up AFTER the first play was unsuccesfull.

He DECIDED to give up BEFORE the draw play. He let the Dolphins waste 40 seconds to punt, because HE HAD GIVEN UP. Maybe he could change his mind If he got the first down the first play.... BUT THEN YOU DONT ****ING CALL A DRAW THROUGH THE MIDDLE.

Vent OVER.

I understood the decision at the time, but i was weird. The more i think about it, the angrier i get.

A lot of people played poorly and deserved to be criticized. But this error is fundamentally different because it was an RATIONAL CONSTRUCTED MISTAKE, and not made in the spur of the moment of a play, which isn't as rational. And here is a fact about rational mistakes, it only happens if you have your facts WRONG

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I completely agree. Honestly it is the single most grating decision of the whole night.

luuked said:

No they didn't. What is this idiotic narrative ?

They had 3 TOs and about a minute to get at least into FG range. Please plot it out for me what the difference is between taking the TO there and taking it after a first successful play except for leaving next to no time for the other team on the clock ?

What about their passing attack gave you the impression they could be successful without giving the ball back to Miami with time on the clock and TOs in their hand ?

And if you say they should have run it then this is exactly what they did. This entire critique of that sequence exposes people that don't understand football so nicely I love that it happened.

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No excuse for not taking the time out and leaving 1:40 on the clock. If you run a play after that and it is unsuccessful, the Dolphins are not likely to immediately call a time out. You can then run it down to about a minute and throw on second down or run again etc. The bottom line is that even if you can't get a drive going, you are likely punting and pinning the Dolphins deep with about a minute to go in the half. And if you don't have the confidence in your defense to defend the field against the Dolphins for a minute, then you are just giving up.