Kraft Orchids Case - Prosecuters Want a Tug Rule?

venecol said:

The National Center on Sexual Exploitation is an Anti-pornography group. These are some of their claimed victories:

• The hotel industry’s removal of on-demand pornography from the television offerings in guest rooms;
• Major changes to Google ads, GooglePlay, and YouTube;
• Resolutions declaring pornography a public health crisis passed in four states (with more to come);
• Disney’s removal of a sex trafficking scene in its Pirates of the Caribbean rides;
• Stopping a bill in New Hampshire that would have fully decriminalized prostitution;
• Ending the sale of pornography at U.S. Army and Air Force exchanges;
• Walmart’s removal of eroticized child nudity books from its online store;
• Marsh supermarkets removal of Cosmopolitan from checkout lanes in its more than 80 stores;
• Stopping mainstream hotels from hosting a sex industry expos;
• Working with major airlines to improve their policies prohibiting the viewing of pornography on planes.

Based on this the entire NFL should be dissolved or anyone else that watches porn. Lol

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Goodell probably hits kraft reguardless. These things are getting over the top by a lot

venecol said:

The National Center on Sexual Exploitation is an Anti-pornography group. These are some of their claimed victories:

• The hotel industry’s removal of on-demand pornography from the television offerings in guest rooms;
• Major changes to Google ads, GooglePlay, and YouTube;
• Resolutions declaring pornography a public health crisis passed in four states (with more to come);
• Disney’s removal of a sex trafficking scene in its Pirates of the Caribbean rides;
• Stopping a bill in New Hampshire that would have fully decriminalized prostitution;
• Ending the sale of pornography at U.S. Army and Air Force exchanges;
• Walmart’s removal of eroticized child nudity books from its online store;
• Marsh supermarkets removal of Cosmopolitan from checkout lanes in its more than 80 stores;
• Stopping mainstream hotels from hosting a sex industry expos;
• Working with major airlines to improve their policies prohibiting the viewing of pornography on planes.

Based on this the entire NFL should be dissolved or anyone else that watches porn. Lol

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Not trying to make an argument or anything, but it is kinda funny when you realize that pornography is really just hookers on camera. We all look down on hookers, but porn is practically glorified. There is probably something to be said for whatever this group is doing.

I LOL'd at Cosmo being dropped by supermarkets though.

miloofcroton said:

Not trying to make an argument or anything, but it is kinda funny when you realize that pornography is really just hookers on camera. We all look down on hookers, but porn is practically glorified. There is probably something to be said for whatever this group is doing.

I LOL'd at Cosmo being dropped by supermarkets though.

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I don't look down on working girls, its a job like any other. The real funny part is that one of their so called victories:

• Stopping a bill in New Hampshire that would have fully decriminalized prostitution;

Is one of the main issues that allow sex trafficking. Many international human trafficking organizations encourage the legalization of sex workers to avoid the trafficking. We just live in a really hypocritical society when it comes to sex.

You look at 300 men, many of which are regular citizens with no criminal records, men with careers and social standing in their communities that have been totally embarrassed and their lives ridiculed for no "important" reason. Four cities, 8 months of investigations, 10 parlors closed, 300 men arrested, a few dozen women arrested, only one woman charged with trafficking in Vero Beach (not part of Krafts sting).

Apparently there's been a reverse effect on the news of these busts.

venecol said:

I don't look down on working girls, its a job like any other. The real funny part is that one of their so called victories:

• Stopping a bill in New Hampshire that would have fully decriminalized prostitution;

Is one of the main issues that allow sex trafficking. Many international human trafficking organizations encourage the legalization of sex workers to avoid the trafficking. We just live in a really hypocritical society when it comes to sex.

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Do you really think the incentive for human trafficking is gone if it's legalized?

No one looks down on working girls. They look down on the John and the Pimp. No one says "I want to be a prostitute when I grow up!"

On the other hand, Instagram models are basically pornstars at this point, and plenty of girls want to be models.

miloofcroton said:

Do you really think the incentive for human trafficking is gone if it's legalized?

No one looks down on working girls. They look down on the John and the Pimp.

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Yes I do but I'm no expert. The experts in these matters though agree that legalizing will dramatically reduce the need for the trafficking.

It makes sense, similar to legalizing pot, you regulate it, tax it, control it, thus reduce the underground nature of sex for pay along with STDs, exploitation, under age abuse, etc. It becomes a legal business instead of a black market run by scum bags.

venecol said:

Yes I do but I'm no expert. The experts in these matters though agree that legalizing will dramatically reduce the need for the trafficking.

It makes sense, similar to legalizing pot, you regulate it, tax it, control it, thus reduce the underground nature of sex for pay along with STDs, exploitation, under age abuse, etc. It becomes a legal business instead of a black market run by scum bags.

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>black market run by scum bags.

So instead we can have a culture of open scumbaggery

I do think this is an interesting philosophical point. Some people believe in laws that are known to be imperfect (e.g. speeding laws, weed, prostitution, etc), and some people do not believe in them. I would even dare say that this separates the crowd into conservatives and liberals. And it's not necessarily the content of the law; it's just the concept of having laws on the books which are known to not be perfect (no immediate 'victim', not universally enforced, etc).

miloofcroton said:

>black market run by scum bags.

So instead we can have a culture of open scumbaggery

I do think this is an interesting philosophical point. Some people believe in laws that are known to be imperfect (e.g. speeding laws, weed, prostitution, etc), and some people do not believe in them. I would even dare say that this separates the crowd into conservatives and liberals. And it's not necessarily the content of the law; it's just the concept of having laws on the books which are known to not be perfect (no immediate 'victim', not universally enforced, etc).

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There are pros and cons to everything. I agree with this guys view of it, although there are many valid opposing views that I can respect:

Marshall Frank, Retired Captain from the Metro-Dade Police Department, in an Aug. 29, 2015 article for floridatoday.com titled "Frank: Let's Legalize, Regulate Prostitution," wrote:

"It's time for legislators to wake up from slumber land by legalizing and regulating prostitution...

Some folks disapprove of the immoral nature of sex for sale and, perhaps, rightfully so. But judging morality is for churches, employers, family members and peers. It should not be a matter for law enforcement, court dockets and jail cells, costing the taxpayer dearly, every day, every month, every year...

Prostitution flourishes in the black market that would not exist if brothels and hookers were legitimized, licensed, medically inspected, zoned and taxed. Like drugs, gambling and other crimes of morality, or alcohol prohibition of years past, the black market is nourished by draconian laws that forever fail to accomplish its intended purpose...

In Germany, and other countries, prostitution is legal and taxed. They turn the 'crime' into an economic plus. In other countries like the United States, we create the 'crime,' which turns the behavior into an economic negative. And, it's still a thriving business, law or no law."

Aug. 29, 2015 - Marshall Frank

AndyJohnson said:

His priority is being able to deny any wrongdoing. Taking the deal precludes that. No way he takes the deal.

Nevertheless your comments about there needing to be audiotape are not correct.

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You can’t deny wrongdoing if you get convicted of a crime. He won’t take the deal cause his lawyers are telling him he should not. Great lawyers don’t just March you to the gallows. They minimize damage. If they don’t advise him to take the deal it’s cause they know they can beat it. As far as the audio goes, I did assume that he at least went through the charade of paying for a massage and then also got a happy ending but if he didn’t and just got a hand job then you are correct. He will still beat the wrap is my guess. Good lawyers can get you out of killing people ask Ray Lewis. Unless he was a total moron nothing will come of this. But feel free to think his 1500 dollar an hour lawyers are stumped.

Patsfanin Philly said:

If Kraft goes to trial and gets sentenced to jail, you can bet your last dollar, it will be " all hands on deck" in appeals burying the State attorney in appeals and paperwork before he ever sees the inside of a jail cell....

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Would you expect 77 year old man of privilege to be sentenced for a misdemeanor???

That is the furthest thing I see for him, unless he knew about the "sexual slavery", which at this time there is no indication of.

But this is Florida, where justice is very uneven..McCann sports law via MMQB has offered some scenarios for Mr. Kraft's defense.. very good detail about this case.

Kraft’s next course of action after prosecutors offer plea deal

• Kraft did not solicit a sexual act and instead only paid for lawful massages;

• The videos show that, contrary to the incriminating narratives of police officers, Kraft did not have sexual relations with woman at the Orchids of Asia Day Spa;

• The search warrants for videos were invalid or misused in ways that ran afoul of the Fourth Amendment; and

• Kraft was an elderly victim of entrapment.

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Maybe Kraft is onto something here.... I never thought of showing up to my wife's work to get a hand job and then give her some money.... yup, just a couple of adults on a date. Kinky love.

The fact is, Kraft has filed to have the video evidence suppressed. You don't do that if it proves you're innocent.

Whether he's convicted or not, let's not contort ourselves into thinking he didn't do this. Most of the pretend lawyers are just trying to figure out how he can get out of it. You can argue procedure and the moral opinions of prostitution and its affect on and from society all day long but in the end, he most likely did it and it is illegal.

Just like he hired someone to get him off, he hired someone who could get him off

Deus Irae said:

That case was lost by the prosecution for 3 reasons, and pretty much only for 3 reasons. None of them were really about great lawyering by the defense.

1. The jury didn't want to convict because he was black, and because he was O.J..
   
2. Darden was stupid enough to try the glove stunt
3. Furman had said some things in the past that opened the "racism!" door wide open.

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Agreed, but inexperienced lawyering on the prosecution side led to those three things. Related to No. 1, the prosecutors did not fight changing the venue of the case from Brentwood to downtown LA (their first and probably biggest mistake). I also thought Marcia Clark laughing and smiling along with the attorneys from the other side in front of the jury every day hurt the state's case. She looked in awe of the Dream Team along with everyone else. Darden with the glove is self-explanatory (never ask a question [or do a demonstration] that you don't know the answer to or outcome of}. They were unable to rehabilitate Furman or marginalize his previous comments. In their defense, I believe the lead prosecutor had a heart attack or other serious medical issue right before the start of the trial and those two were thrown into doing the prosecution.

venecol said:

You look at 300 men, many of which are regular citizens with no criminal records, men with careers and social standing in their communities that have been totally embarrassed and their lives ridiculed for no "important" reason. Four cities, 8 months of investigations, 10 parlors closed, 300 men arrested, a few dozen women arrested, only one woman charged with trafficking in Vero Beach (not part of Krafts sting).

Apparently there's been a reverse effect on the news of these busts.

View attachment 22866

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How long before they find something related on this prosecutor?

DarrylS said:

Sounds like a no lo contendre plea.. "a plea by which a defendant in a criminal prosecution accepts conviction as though a guilty plea had been entered but does not admit guilt"

All of his victim advocacy (Meek Mills etc.) rings very hollow as he essentially is getting the opportunity to do an end run around the legal system....

Many folks who go to Court are not afforded the same opportunity, but OTOH it is a misdemeanor and there realistically should be no significant consequence for his actions (based on the belief that he did not know the women were essentially sex slaves)

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Please stop with the false sex slave narrative!

It has been admitted by police that they made up the human trafficking angle to get warrants to video tape. Why are you perpetuating this when it never happened?

Triumph said:

This ought to be good.

There were a total of 25 men in all caught up in this. 24 will be found guilty, but Bob somehow is innocent.

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Actually, if the police lied and abused their power in this investigation/trap, everyone is innocent

As long as their lawyers present this defense

Even though I have been talking about ways that Kraft can "get off" or try to get a lesser punishment (can't resist talking about lawyering), I don't agree with the sentiments in this thread that prostitution or porn should be legalized or allowed to run rampant in society. The fact is that unlike the men who are into these things for the fun and games, a lot of the women and girls involved in these things are there because they have to be. Lots of them are exploited runaways or poor people with no where else to go and no other way to earn money than to sell their bodies (things we were led to believe at the start of the Kraft case of the workers at the spa where this happened - we haven't heard much about these women since the early days of the case) who are horribly abused by the "system" they find themselves in. I applaud the groups trying to help them. I have no problem with the public shaming of Kraft and other guys like him. He and they should know better. I'm not some horrible prude, but my heart breaks for the women and girls caught up in these "industries" who don't want to be there. Imagine if your mother, sister or daughter worked at that place.

RayClay said:

It's obvious that a billionare accused of getting a hand job gets this squashed before it sees the light of day. Seems the former owner of this establishment is very highly connected and this could be a case of potential blackmail, or at least influence..

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Don’t get carried away with conspiracy theories! The FORMER owner is irrelevant to this case. And anyone that knows the former owner is also irrelevant

AndyJohnson said:

Are you seriously telling me you think he is innocent?

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I seriously believe he was set up

PatriotsReign said:

I seriously believe he was set up

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I think it's more accurate to say that Kraft unwittingly walked into an ongoing sting and became the poster child for the case. It's his own damn fault, though...

venecol said:

The National Center on Sexual Exploitation is an Anti-pornography group. These are some of their claimed victories:

• The hotel industry’s removal of on-demand pornography from the television offerings in guest rooms;
• Major changes to Google ads, GooglePlay, and YouTube;
• Resolutions declaring pornography a public health crisis passed in four states (with more to come);
• Disney’s removal of a sex trafficking scene in its Pirates of the Caribbean rides;
• Stopping a bill in New Hampshire that would have fully decriminalized prostitution;
• Ending the sale of pornography at U.S. Army and Air Force exchanges;
• Walmart’s removal of eroticized child nudity books from its online store;
• Marsh supermarkets removal of Cosmopolitan from checkout lanes in its more than 80 stores;
• Stopping mainstream hotels from hosting a sex industry expos;
• Working with major airlines to improve their policies prohibiting the viewing of pornography on planes.

Based on this the entire NFL should be dissolved or anyone else that watches porn. Lol

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That would include a LOT of men. “Removing Cosmopolitan”? Hahahahaha! Really??