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The ASJ Fumble


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Maybe youre right about that. I just dont think a play as ticky tack as this should be allowed to have such a huge impact on a game. If the ball had shot out the back of the endzone thatd be one thing, but when it never did anything more than bobble in a mans arms...

Simply put, the punishment doesnt fit the crime. It just doesnt feel right at all

I would have to disagree with that take. IMO if the offensive player fumbles the ball out of the end zone which is what happened in this rare case where it LOOKED like a TD but clearly wasn't as he lost possession, the offensive player should not be rewarded with being unable to protect the football. It may seem like a small nuance but it is an important distinction to differentiate between having possession while you break the plane vs. not having possession when you break the plane.

For comparison's sake, the Tuck rule or the Dez Bryant rule have/had more grounds for changes then the ASJ scenario yesterday.
 
What makes it harsh it that if you fumble at the half yard line and it goes out of bounds at the half yard line, you keep the ball at the half yard line.

But if you fumble at the half yard line and it goes forward three feet so it goes out of bounds at a half yard into the end zone, the other team gets the ball at the 20.

One fumble is in essence a turnover but the other is not.

That's the rule, always has been, and I don't think it needs to change. But it does seem a big difference in outcome for a small difference in the play.

But...arguably, the goal line is sacred, and it should be.
 
I would have to disagree with that take. IMO if the offensive player fumbles the ball out of the end zone which is what happened in this rare case where it LOOKED like a TD but clearly wasn't as he lost possession, the offensive player should not be rewarded with being unable to protect the football. It may seem like a small nuance but it is an important distinction to differentiate between having possession while you break the plane vs. not having possession when you break the plane.

For comparison's sake, the Tuck rule or the Dez Bryant rule have/had more grounds for changes then the ASJ scenario yesterday.
I dont even think he shouldve been rewarded with a touchdown tho, maybe just like put the ball at the goal line or wherever the he last had clear possession. You'd still be taking away the touchdown but without having to go to the extreme of rewarding the other team for not really doing anything either.

I dont really know how you would word that from a rulebook perspective, but it seems like a more appropriate outcome then "the ball bobbled a bit, give it to the other team and f**k these guys"
 
Well, I have spent the better part of the last 3 hours or so reading this thread and have a few things to add to it.

> ASJ conceited the ruling.

> The Butler Did (His Job) It.

> 3:10 to Yuma was a good western as well.
 
Just food for thought, because I keep seeing this on the NFL subreddit: people are saying that unless there's indisputable evidence that ASJ failed to recover the ball, the touchdown should stand. That betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how the whole indisputable evidence thing works.

The call on the field was that the ball was never fumbled in the first place, and ASJ cleanly carried it over the plane for a touchdown. Once replay established that he fumbled the ball, they had clear, indisputable evidence that the ruling on the field was wrong. Standard met, and they're now left with two possibilities: either he recovered the fumble or he did not. Either one is a departure from the initial ruling, so there's no reason why the refs should grant deference to ruling that it was still a touchdown.
 
Just food for thought, because I keep seeing this on the NFL subreddit: people are saying that unless there's indisputable evidence that ASJ failed to recover the ball, the touchdown should stand. That betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how the whole indisputable evidence thing works.

The call on the field was that the ball was never fumbled in the first place, and ASJ cleanly carried it over the plane for a touchdown. Once replay established that he fumbled the ball, they had clear, indisputable evidence that the ruling on the field was wrong. Standard met, and they're now left with two possibilities: either he recovered the fumble or he did not. Either one is a departure from the initial ruling, so there's no reason why the refs should grant deference to ruling that it was still a touchdown.
That's what a lot of people don't get, I listened to Merloni cry all show that there wasn't enough evidence to overturn the call.What! He didn't see the bobble? Plus not everyone has seen all the angles, there's one where he clearly doesn't have possession and he's already OB
 
Just food for thought, because I keep seeing this on the NFL subreddit: people are saying that unless there's indisputable evidence that ASJ failed to recover the ball, the touchdown should stand. That betrays a fundamental misunderstanding of how the whole indisputable evidence thing works.

The call on the field was that the ball was never fumbled in the first place, and ASJ cleanly carried it over the plane for a touchdown. Once replay established that he fumbled the ball, they had clear, indisputable evidence that the ruling on the field was wrong. Standard met, and they're now left with two possibilities: either he recovered the fumble or he did not. Either one is a departure from the initial ruling, so there's no reason why the refs should grant deference to ruling that it was still a touchdown.

The irony here is that you're on others for getting it wrong, but you're getting it wrong.

"We can definitely say he fumbled, but we can't be certain about the rest" = "Call stands" is the only reasonable way to approach matters like this.

That's sort of the whole point of "Call stands".
 
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I know that the ruling was correct, by letter of the law. Thats not the problem here. The problem is the letter of the law needs to be changed because that play, IMO, should never be ruled a fumble under any circumstances. you should be able to just look at these plays and say "okay did that pass the eyeball test or didnt it?" And this one clearly doesnt pass the eyeball test for me, and the majority of people outside of patriots nation as well it seems

So it should be 'the player has to kinda sort regain possession of the ball'?
 
The irony here is that you're on others for getting it wrong, but you're getting it wrong.

"We can definitely say he fumbled, but we can't be certain about the rest" = "Call stands" is the only reasonable way to approach matters like this.

That's sort of the whole point of "Call stands".

No, "call stands" = "we do not have indisputable evidence that the ruling on the field was wrong". In this case, they had indisputable evidence that the call on the field was wrong. What they ultimately rule has to proceed from that simple, objective fact. This picture spells it out pretty clearly: a fumble happened.

Tn3un8s.jpg


There is a separate rule that specifically applies to fumbles stating that even if replay shows that a fumble occurred in the field of play, you cannot award possession to the other team unless the replay also shows definitively that the other team recovered it. There would be no reason for that specific rule to exist in the first place if the replay rules worked as you're claiming they do. It would just be implicitly true that all fumbles that weren't ruled as fumbles on the field should be awarded back to the offense without definitive proof that the defense recovered, but because it doesn't work that way the league office had to make a separate, specific rule for this specific circumstance.
 
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Seems to me where the confusion among the players and fandom lies is the notion that TDs are going to be reviewed

While the Ref signaled TD and some think that unless there's clear evidence overturning the call on the field, it appears that when they looked at the replay, they never saw any conclusive evidence that it was a TD in the first place

Thus the call was reversed because the fact simply is that he CLEARLY did not have possession when he crossed the goal line. even though the official initially said he did

There would have had to be evidence that he DID have possession at the time he touched the pylon - and there was not.

So the official erred in his assessment that he had control when crossing the goal line - and the call was reversed.

What COULD have clarified the ruling was a camera angle showing that AFTER he was bobbling the ball, he gained control while touching the pylon.

No such video evidence existed - thus, the reviewers in NY corrected the call.

In summary the officials were looking for two things - did he have possession when crossing the goal line? No he did not.

Did he have possession & was touching the pylon when he finally landed out of bounds? No one knows as there was no camera angle on that.

TD was reversed - as it should have been.
 
Seems to me where the confusion among the players and fandom lies is the notion that TDs are going to be reviewed

While the Ref signaled TD and some think that unless there's clear evidence overturning the call on the field, it appears that when they looked at the replay, they never saw any conclusive evidence that it was a TD in the first place

Thus the call was reversed because the fact simply is that he CLEARLY did not have possession when he crossed the goal line. even though the official initially said he did

There would have had to be evidence that he DID have possession at the time he touched the pylon - and there was not.

So the official erred in his assessment that he had control when crossing the goal line - and the call was reversed.

What COULD have clarified the ruling was a camera angle showing that AFTER he was bobbling the ball, he gained control while touching the pylon.

No such video evidence existed - thus, the reviewers in NY corrected the call.

In summary the officials were looking for two things - did he have possession when crossing the goal line? No he did not.

Did he have possession & was touching the pylon when he finally landed out of bounds? No one knows as there was no camera angle on that.

TD was reversed - as it should have been.

I agree with most of what you wrote, but there is a clarification worth making re: the bolded portion and what came after, as by rule there's actually clear proof that he never re-established possession after the fumble. The rulebook states pretty clearly that, much like securing a catch, securing possession of a fumble is a lot more involved than just grabbing the ball. You have to maintain possession to the point that you become a runner, a point on which Rule 3-7-2 of the NFL Rule Book is very clear:

Item 2. Possession of Loose Ball.
To gain possession of a loose ball that has been caught, intercepted, or recovered, a player must have complete control of the ball and have both feet or any other part of his body, other than his hands, completely on the ground inbounds, and then maintain control of the ball long enough to become a runner. A player has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any other part of his body to the ground, there is no possession. This rule applies in the field of play and in the end zone.
By rule, ASJ clearly did not have the ball long enough to become a runner: he was going to the ground when he fumbled it, and therefore to regain possession he would have had to control it through to the ground in bounds, but it's irrelevant because he did not secure the ball through the fall: it came out once again when he hit the ground. Much like a receiver who gets a knee down in bounds is not awarded the catch if he drops the ball as he goes to the ground, ASJ never had possession of the football after the fumble.

Bottom line: the people who are arguing that it was a touchdown do not understand how the possession rules work. The people who are arguing that it should not have been overturned on replay do not understand how the replay rules work. A whole lot of people don't understand either of the two, and that's why we have a ton of controversy now surrounding a ruling that the league office has doubled down and said was not only correct, but was actually quite obvious. It was absolutely, 100% the correct application of a really stupid rule that as a Pats fan I freely concede should not exist. We absolutely got a gift yesterday, but it was in the form of a colossally stupid rule, not a blown call or unreasonable overturn.
 
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It was absolutely, 100% the correct application of a really stupid rule that as a Pats fan I freely concede should not exist. We absolutely got a gift yesterday, but it was in the form of a colossally stupid rule, not a blown call or unreasonable overturn.

How would you change the rule so it wouldn't been stupid?

And what should the penalty be for fumbling into the end zone?
 
and both of them depend on hits & retweets for income, no?

disagreeing with the ruling and jumping on the 'controversy' bandwagon helps the hit count for sure......
Yeah, that’s it. ;)
 
That doesn't matter. Once the ball is fumbled (he fumbled before hitting the pylon) the player needs to regain possession all the way to the ground and land inbounds. He did neither. Again, the pylon is irrelevant once the fumble occurs.
The discretionary interpretations of “all the way to the ground” are ridiculous and making the game hard to watch. And no he didn’t have to land in bounds. The call was he regained possession as he hit the pylon but the ball moved while was landing out of bounds. If the ball didn’t move across his body while landing out of bounds it would have been a touchdown.
 
How would you change the rule so it wouldn't been stupid?

And what should the penalty be for fumbling into the end zone?

I think it makes sense for fumbling in the end zone to be disincentivized in some way but I think loss of possession is too steep. I'd allow the offense to keep the ball much like they do when they fumble it out of bounds in the field of play, but place it on the 1, 5, 10, or 20 yard line. I don't really care which, that can be hashed out by people who care more than I do how much the fumble should be penalized - I'd be fine with anything up to the 20 yard line, calling it some weird inverted form of touchback.
 
I did not give you a dislike, but it is clear that he lost possession before reaching the pylon.

the still shot on the first page of the thread makes that clear:
DMNfVdxXUAc_mPb.jpg
Yes but he regained possession, but they rule he didn’t retain possession after regaining it all the way to the ground.
 
Yes but he regained possession, but they rule he didn’t retain possession after regaining it all the way to the ground.

That's the thing, by the rule he absolutely did not regain possession. Establishing possession--which he had to do in order to to secure the touchdown once the fumble occurred--requires the player to hold the ball long enough that you become a runner. Much like a receiver who gets both hands on the ball and brings it into the body isn't awarded a catch if the ball pops out as he lands, grabbing the ball after he loses it means nothing unless he maintains possession long enough to establish himself as a runner.

Rule 3-7-2 of the NFL Rule Book makes this explicitly clear:

Item 2. Possession of Loose Ball. To gain possession of a loose ball that has been caught, intercepted, or recovered, a player must have complete control of the ball and have both feet or any other part of his body, other than his hands, completely on the ground inbounds, and then maintain control of the ball long enough to become a runner. A player has the ball long enough to clearly become a runner when, after his second foot is on the ground, he is capable of avoiding or warding off impending contact of an opponent, tucking the ball away, turning up field, or taking additional steps. If the player loses the ball while simultaneously touching both feet or any other part of his body to the ground, there is no possession. This rule applies in the field of play and in the end zone.

The problem here is that people are trying to apply rules for when a runner is granted a touchdown to a player who had not established himself as a runner. The rules are different depending on if you've established possession or not; it's the same basic reason why a guy entering the end zone just has to have the ball cross the plane, while a receiver in the end zone has to control the ball all the way to the ground.
 
Credit Boston.com Rachel Bowers Article:

“At what point he touched the pylon, it was during the process of trying to recover the ball,’’ Corrente said. “Even though he may have had the ball in his hands the second time, that control does not mean possession until he comes to the ground and shows firm control of the ball at that point.

“When he lost the ball short of the goal line, when he lost the ball, he re-gained control but that doesn’t mean he possesses the ball. He doesn’t possess the ball until he’s completed going to the ground now and re-controlling the ball, which he did not survive the ground, which is why it wasn’t a touchdown. Had he never lost control of the ball in the first place, you would have a touchdown. But because he lost the ball and now has to re-establish control of the ball, that was the period of time.’’

Riveron said on Monday that the rule was properly applied.

“We might not agree with the rule, but that is the rule, so the rule was enforced correctly,’’ he said.
He regained control, but evidently the ball moved too much when he hit the ground after regaining control for it to be considered possession. So you can argue that the rule is ok, but not applied properly in that it should have been ruled that there was sufficient control when hitting the ground after regaining control while in mid air ton constitute possession and therefore a TD.
 
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