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Thoughts about the switch to the 4-3


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BritPat

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It's now pretty clear that BB had it planned for a while - the addition of more athletic and quick LB's who fit the 4-3 prototype, the keeping of Mike Wright and Jarvis Green (who were both good in the 3-4, but should excel in the 4-3, and in Wright's case has done this year), the additions of Brace (who to be fair looks a prototypical 3-4 NT) but specifically Pryor and Richard in the Draft (prototypical 4-3 DT's), but it's more interesting to delve into why he's done it.

There's the argument of more teams switching to the 3-4, especially with more of Belichick's disciples getting coaching jobs, and I think it's a very fair one at the very least. The 3-4 is a tough scheme to draft for because of the complexities of each position and the type and physical attributes the players require (in the front 7 anyway), and there' only so many available each year. I think though, if you look at what the 3-4 actually is - which is a defense based around stopping the run - and what the league is morphing into (primarily a passing league), then (IMO anyway) you see what BB is hoping to accomplish.

Look at the best passing defenses of the last few years - the top three this year, (extrapolated further - four of the top five and seven of the top ten), are 4-3 defenses - last year it was a similar picture with eight of the top ten being 4-3 defenses (the Ravens were second, but they do not run the 3-4, contrary to popular belief), and in 2007 it was the same again - seven of the top ten being 4-3 defenses. That speaks volumes to me, and I think BB has seen the same (except earlier; the genius that he is) and has decided that the 4-3 is the way forwards in terms of stopping teams.

It's getting harder and harder to cover receivers, and quarterbacks (rightly or wrongly) are now protected on a level second only to the President, so pass rush has to be ferocious. We've done a very good job of getting to the QB this year, our DT's have been destroying interior linemen in recent weeks, and that's something that has improved as the season has gone on. If you couple that with what is becoming a terrific secondary, I think you see why BB has changed tack and gone with the 4-3.

Any other thoughts?
 
I think BB is trying to stock his defensive team with players that are adaptible and can switch between the two schemes. I think he will play 4-3 or 3-4, whichever will provide the best scheme to negate the opponent's best player.
 
It's now pretty clear that BB had it planned for a while - the addition of more athletic and quick LB's who fit the 4-3 prototype, the keeping of Mike Wright and Jarvis Green (who were both good in the 3-4, but should excel in the 4-3, and in Wright's case has done this year), the additions of Brace (who to be fair looks a prototypical 3-4 NT) but specifically Pryor and Richard in the Draft (prototypical 4-3 DT's), but it's more interesting to delve into why he's done it.

There's the argument of more teams switching to the 3-4, especially with more of Belichick's disciples getting coaching jobs, and I think it's a very fair one at the very least. The 3-4 is a tough scheme to draft for because of the complexities of each position and the type and physical attributes the players require (in the front 7 anyway), and there' only so many available each year. I think though, if you look at what the 3-4 actually is - which is a defense based around stopping the run - and what the league is morphing into (primarily a passing league), then (IMO anyway) you see what BB is hoping to accomplish.

Look at the best passing defenses of the last few years - the top three this year, (extrapolated further - four of the top five and seven of the top ten), are 4-3 defenses - last year it was a similar picture with eight of the top ten being 4-3 defenses (the Ravens were second, but they do not run the 3-4, contrary to popular belief), and in 2007 it was the same again - seven of the top ten being 4-3 defenses. That speaks volumes to me, and I think BB has seen the same (except earlier; the genius that he is) and has decided that the 4-3 is the way forwards in terms of stopping teams.

It's getting harder and harder to cover receivers, and quarterbacks (rightly or wrongly) are now protected on a level second only to the President, so pass rush has to be ferocious. We've done a very good job of getting to the QB this year, our DT's have been destroying interior linemen in recent weeks, and that's something that has improved as the season has gone on. If you couple that with what is becoming a terrific secondary, I think you see why BB has changed tack and gone with the 4-3.

Any other thoughts?

I definitely think it's both, but I'd lean more towards the first than the second. The Philllips 3-4 that's being employed in San Diego and Dallas is one thing, but the fact that the Fairbanks-Bullough system in particular is so widespread is a major issue. There just aren't a lot of players coming into the NFL who are equipped to play in the Fairbanks-Bullough system, and it's easier for players to convert over to the Phillips 3-4. There are just too many teams running the F-B 3-4 now, to the point that guys like Tyson Jackson are getting drafted #3 overall. It's going to lead to a bunch of talent-deficient defenses being forced to reach for conversion prospects, while the Pats are able to scout players under circumstances closer to what they'll be playing in, and will be able to get a lot of production from them immediately.
 
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Still think he is building a team that defies traditional definition, with so many quality safeties and CB's... this will be a much different discussion in the future than we are havnig how..

Thought that was the reason he signed Tank Williams.. would not be surprised on one of these games that a safety lines up as a OLB... with the quantity and quality, it may prove interesting..
 
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I definitely think it's both, but I'd lean more towards the first than the second. The Philllips 3-4 that's being employed in San Diego and Dallas is one thing, but the fact that the Fairbanks-Bullough system in particular is so widespread is a major issue. There just aren't a lot of players coming into the NFL who are equipped to play in the Fairbanks-Bullough system, and it's easier for players to convert over to the Phillips 3-4. There are just too many teams running the F-B 3-4 now, to the point that guys like Tyson Jackson are getting drafted #3 overall. It's going to lead to a bunch of talent-deficient defenses being forced to reach for conversion prospects, while the Pats are able to scout players under circumstances closer to what they'll be playing in, and will be able to get a lot of production from them immediately.

Our 34 is the Belichick 34, not the Fairbanks 34. Fairbanks imported the system from college where he ran a 52 at Oklahoma. He simply stood up the DEs, but his system was based on speed, one gap and pursuit.
Ours is a 2 gap system.
Regardless of whether we align in a 34 or 43 we will need the same players for the 2 gap. We really aren't competing against a team like SD for '34 players'. EVERYONE is competing for the DE/OLB hybrid to rush the passer, but realistically we are at the back of the line for those guys because we don't just ask them to rush the QB and forget everything else like one gap teams do with them, whether its a 43 DE or a 34 OLB.
There are many players who fit both one gap and 2 gap systems. If BB were making decisions based upon competition for acquiring players it wouldn't be alignment that he changes but philiosophy of what the players do from that alignment/
 
Well, the Pats seem to have gone back to a 3-4 lately. Seau is a much better fit there.
 
Well, the Pats seem to have gone back to a 3-4 lately. Seau is a much better fit there.

Not sure Seau is going to have that much impact, other than providing extroverted leadership. He wasn't in many snaps last week.
 
Base defenses are overrated. Look at all the defensive backs we've drafted the last two years. It's not by accident. Belichick is building a sub-package oriented defense that's designed to defend against the pass and still be effective against the run.
 
would not be surprised on one of these games that a safety lines up as a OLB...
It's already happened several times this season, see McGowan, Brandon.
 
when BB got the job with the pats there was only like 3 team's runing the 3-4 and he still never drafted a OLB in the first round and no thats not a knock on the pats drafting

but BB looks for all around type player's

he signed AD not because he was a passrusher but because he could play DE in the 4-3 OLB and ILB in the 3-4 and could cover

wright and green can play DT and DE in the 4-3 or DE in the 3-4

the pats play more of a read and react type defense keep everything in front of you and make the tackel and cause confusion not knowing where the blitz is comeing from when they get you in 3rd down

the cowboys and san deigo run a 1 gap system where the front 3 can go after the QB a lot more and not just eat up blocks for the LB like the pats front dose

every 3-4 team has there own take on how they want to run there system and the type of players they use to run it

yes lot's of team's run the 3-4 now but if denver can draft a guy like Elvis Dumervil in the 7th round a good 3rd down passrushing 4-3 DE and in one year turn him in to one of the best 3-4 OLB in the NFL i cant see why the pats cant do the same
 
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Arguing in support of BritPat's passing defense hypothesis:
- More 4-3 this season.
- The trend towards coverage Safeties like Meriweather and Chung.
- The trend towards Hybrid S/LBs like McGowan.
- Drafting lighter, quicker Linebackers.

Arguing in favor of adjusting the defense to personnel:
- Mayo, he's obviously better able to play ILB in BB's 3-4 this year, but he's a sideline-to-sideline terror if the big guys can keep him clean.
- Guyton, he was a very pleasant surprise last season and has just gotten better. Like Mayo the 4-3 takes advantage of his range.
- Hybrid S/LB
- Vince "Baby Sapp" Wilfork, Mike "31 teams ignored this guy in Free Agency :rofl:" Wright, and Jarvis "Less expensive than Seymour and nearly as effective" Green are as good if not more so in the 4-3.

Arguing in favor of a collection of mad scientist coaches cooking up the next great defensive mutiple:
- Bill Belichick
- Dean Pees, protege to Nick Saban protege to BB
- Pepper Johnson, 3 team (5 SB) Belichick protege
- Matt Patricia
- Josh Boyer
- Warren, Wilfork, Green, Wright, Mayo, Guyton, TBC, Burgess, Meriweather, McGowan, Chung, Thomas (despite this year's struggles)...

Most likely the truth is some mix of these three. I can't see that it's a function of the college environment, the players being drafted are still fits for the 3-4, and I don't really see that the other 3-4 teams are going to make it that difficult for NE to find the players they need given how they did just that in this draft despite the new 3-4 teams starting up.
 
Base defenses are overrated. Look at all the defensive backs we've drafted the last two years. It's not by accident. Belichick is building a sub-package oriented defense that's designed to defend against the pass and still be effective against the run.

Love this thread. The evolving defensive scheme is the story of this Pats season thus far. Fun stuff.

I do think there's a shift in BB's overall defensive philosophy in response to the rise of high-powered passing attacks. No one has really run on the Pats in years, but increasingly, good passing teams have turned bend-but-don't-break into bend-and-bend-until-they-score.

Indy's defense during the past five years has been more successful against the pass (I don't have the stats; that's just an impression). It's built on relentless pressure on the QB and closing speed.

It looks to me like BB is doing a makeover: incorporating more pressure and way faster LBs and DBs with mainstay discipline and deception. It's less a 3-4 or 4-3 question as much as a run or pass question with pass defense becoming the new "base."

Mike Reiss recently tallied up the defensive snaps in the season so far and found the sub package was used 49% of the time, more than either the 3-4 or 4-3. Thanks, Mike!
 
Why do people say the 3-4 is better fitted to stop the run than the 4-3 while the 4-3 is better at pass defense? I thought the strength of the 3-4 was that you could disguise where the pass rush/blitz was coming from?
 
Why do people say the 3-4 is better fitted to stop the run than the 4-3 while the 4-3 is better at pass defense? I thought the strength of the 3-4 was that you could disguise where the pass rush/blitz was coming from?

4 linebackers are better in pursuit and have better leverage than 3 linebackers.

Linebackers are run-stoppers, down lineman are pass rushers.
 
Very interesting point. I do think the run defense this year needs to step it up.

It's funny someone mentioned no one has run on us in years. It's true. The Pats have always been able to stop the run, but teams like the Colts have killed our secondary. The NFL, with rules and such has no doubt become a passing league. Bill is building his defense to better defend it, plain and simple. As a result I think they're struggling a bit getting effective run D out of it.

Hopefully in time it will solidify itself. However, I think Belichick has it fresh in his mind over the years how much the pass defense has cost him. He's going to focus on that first and foremost, and the true measuring stick will be against Indy.
 
Arguing in support of BritPat's passing defense hypothesis:
- More 4-3 this season.
- The trend towards coverage Safeties like Meriweather and Chung.
- The trend towards Hybrid S/LBs like McGowan.
- Drafting lighter, quicker Linebackers.

Arguing in favor of adjusting the defense to personnel:
- Mayo, he's obviously better able to play ILB in BB's 3-4 this year, but he's a sideline-to-sideline terror if the big guys can keep him clean.
- Guyton, he was a very pleasant surprise last season and has just gotten better. Like Mayo the 4-3 takes advantage of his range.
- Hybrid S/LB
- Vince "Baby Sapp" Wilfork, Mike "31 teams ignored this guy in Free Agency :rofl:" Wright, and Jarvis "Less expensive than Seymour and nearly as effective" Green are as good if not more so in the 4-3.

Arguing in favor of a collection of mad scientist coaches cooking up the next great defensive mutiple:
- Bill Belichick
- Dean Pees, protege to Nick Saban protege to BB
- Pepper Johnson, 3 team (5 SB) Belichick protege
- Matt Patricia
- Josh Boyer
- Warren, Wilfork, Green, Wright, Mayo, Guyton, TBC, Burgess, Meriweather, McGowan, Chung, Thomas (despite this year's struggles)...

Most likely the truth is some mix of these three. I can't see that it's a function of the college environment, the players being drafted are still fits for the 3-4, and I don't really see that the other 3-4 teams are going to make it that difficult for NE to find the players they need given how they did just that in this draft despite the new 3-4 teams starting up.

Box. This is a brilliant breakdown. I bow to you. You've been quiet recently ... nice to hear from you.
 
The one issue in this logic are one more teams still play 4-3. Can you name the different flavours of 4-3. Nope as in 4-3 the ends are always rushing up and tackles occuping the gaurds and center.

IN a3-4 we have so many different flavours that some players like ware ,merriman will never fit in ours where we ask our OLB to drop in coverage. I will add even AD to this.
 
Arguing in support of BritPat's passing defense hypothesis:
- More 4-3 this season.
- The trend towards coverage Safeties like Meriweather and Chung.
- The trend towards Hybrid S/LBs like McGowan.
- Drafting lighter, quicker Linebackers.

Arguing in favor of adjusting the defense to personnel:
- Mayo, he's obviously better able to play ILB in BB's 3-4 this year, but he's a sideline-to-sideline terror if the big guys can keep him clean.
- Guyton, he was a very pleasant surprise last season and has just gotten better. Like Mayo the 4-3 takes advantage of his range.
- Hybrid S/LB
- Vince "Baby Sapp" Wilfork, Mike "31 teams ignored this guy in Free Agency :rofl:" Wright, and Jarvis "Less expensive than Seymour and nearly as effective" Green are as good if not more so in the 4-3.

Arguing in favor of a collection of mad scientist coaches cooking up the next great defensive mutiple:
- Bill Belichick
- Dean Pees, protege to Nick Saban protege to BB
- Pepper Johnson, 3 team (5 SB) Belichick protege
- Matt Patricia
- Josh Boyer
- Warren, Wilfork, Green, Wright, Mayo, Guyton, TBC, Burgess, Meriweather, McGowan, Chung, Thomas (despite this year's struggles)...

Most likely the truth is some mix of these three. I can't see that it's a function of the college environment, the players being drafted are still fits for the 3-4, and I don't really see that the other 3-4 teams are going to make it that difficult for NE to find the players they need given how they did just that in this draft despite the new 3-4 teams starting up.


BOR,

Good to hear from you.

We've played a large number of 4-2-5 and 4-1-6 sub packages, importing SS into box. I think Reiss did a package count and the nickel/dime was nearly the same number as the base we played in, so this would render the discussion of an actual switch to 4-3 a little mute, considering how fast we shift out of the base (in the last few games).
 
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Our 34 is the Belichick 34, not the Fairbanks 34. Fairbanks imported the system from college where he ran a 52 at Oklahoma. He simply stood up the DEs, but his system was based on speed, one gap and pursuit.
Ours is a 2 gap system.

Sorry, but you're wrong on a bunch of points:

1) Fairbanks-Bullough is a 2-gap system. Don't know where you got the idea that it isn't, but you're wrong. If you don't believe me, feel free to check with any of these sources:

MHR University - Modern 3-4 DefenseSystems - Mile High Report
This system is what most people think of when they think of the 3-4. It is based on 2-gap play on the D-line.

New England Patriots strategy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The "Fairbanks-Bullough" 3-4 system is known as a two gap system, because each of the defensive linemen are required to cover the gaps to both sides of the offensive lineman that try to block them.

The 3-4 Defense: A Primer | bruces1g's Football Blog | FanNation
The "2" gap is usually know as the Fairbanks-Bullough, named after Chuck Fairbanks and Hank Bullough, two early innovators of the 3-4 as mentioned previously.

IDP 401 -- 3-4 Front - Footballguys Forums
The Patriots, under former Oklahoma coaches Chuck Fairbanks and Hank Bullough, used a two gap concept on the line, preferring to contain offenses rather than risk an overly aggressive philosophy

Of course Belichick's defense is his own, but it is clearly a close descendant of Fairbanks-Bullough. To some extent or another, every two-gap 3-4 base is a Fairbanks-Bullough descendant.

Regardless of whether we align in a 34 or 43 we will need the same players for the 2 gap. We really aren't competing against a team like SD for '34 players'. EVERYONE is competing for the DE/OLB hybrid to rush the passer, but realistically we are at the back of the line for those guys because we don't just ask them to rush the QB and forget everything else like one gap teams do with them, whether its a 43 DE or a 34 OLB.

... that is almost exactly what I said. I said that players in a Fairbanks-Bullough 3-4 tend to have different responsibilities than players in a Phillips 3-4. OLBs are a great example: San Diego or Dallas will use them almost exclusively as pass rushers, while we need guys that can cover as well. DE responsibilities and ILB responsibilities also change quite a bit based on philosophy.

That's why it wasn't such a huge deal when most of the other 3-4s in the league were Phillips 3-4s: we were looking for different types of players at linebacker and defensive line anyways. Now, OTOH, we're competing with teams that are looking for the same players that we are because they play a similar style of 3-4.

There are many players who fit both one gap and 2 gap systems. If BB were making decisions based upon competition for acquiring players it wouldn't be alignment that he changes but philiosophy of what the players do from that alignment/

2001 and 2009 say that you're wrong. Belichick isn't going to stick with alignments that don't maximize what he can get out of his players. If moving to a 4-3 makes it easier to a) acquire players who can contribute and b) maximize their subsequent contributions, then he can, has, and will continue to run a base 4-3.
 
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Base defenses are overrated. Look at all the defensive backs we've drafted the last two years. It's not by accident. Belichick is building a sub-package oriented defense that's designed to defend against the pass and still be effective against the run.

Great point- someone quoted Dom Capers a couple of months ago, and he apparently said that for 2008, the Pats spent a surprisingly small percentage of snaps in the base 3-4. I think it was down in the ~20% range. They spent far more time in a 4-2-5 nickel.
 
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