Still No # 1WR

[50-yard-line]

I am not sure what you're not understanding. I only care about what he counted against the cap in each year. That is all that matters. He was here for 20 years so all the can kicking down the road still contributed to his cap number to whatever year the can was kicked outside of 2020 when he left.

Great, but he wasn't averaging the 6th highest salary in the years you mentioned,a s you stated in your first post.

The front office was playing Houdini in moving money around. And since all teams do that, particularly in that position, the top 5-10 spots shift and bounce around every year. Being in the top 5-10 every year with the occasional outlier via contract (Brady in 2012) means that someone is a top-paid QB.

Darnold will be near the top next year. Garoppolo will be 6th this year if he isn't cut or restructured.

 

[203Pat]

Great, but he wasn't averaging the 6th highest salary in the years you mentioned,a s you stated in your first post.

The front office was playing Houdini in moving money around. And since all teams do that, particularly in that position, the top 5-10 spots shift and bounce around every year. Being in the top 5-10 every year with the occasional outlier via contract (Brady in 2012) means that someone is a top-paid QB.

Darnold will be near the top next year. Garoppolo will be 6th this year if he isn't cut or restructured.

Lol I am not even sure what we are arguing about anymore. My whole thing was Brady was generally paid in the same range throughout most of his career. Highly paid but never maximized every dollar and it seemed like he did get a little more willing to take a little less to get a deal done. I don't know if it was the car accident in 2010 about or if it was marrying someone worth half a billion but towards the end the contracts seemed more important in length as a gesture that the team believed in him more so than the money. We saw how he was rewarded for that at the end of his Patriots tenure.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Lol I am not even sure what we are arguing about anymore. My whole thing was Brady was generally paid in the same range throughout most of his career. Highly paid but never maximized every dollar and it seemed like he did get a little more willing to take a little less to get a deal done. I don't know if it was the car accident in 2010 about or if it was marrying someone worth half a billion but towards the end the contracts seemed more important in length as a gesture that the team believed in him more so than the money. We saw how he was rewarded for that at the end of his Patriots tenure.

Agree.

There is no question Tom had a chip on his shoulder regarding being appreciated by the organization and BB. He admitted that during the Jim Gray interviews.

Whether that sentiment was rooted in his dissatisfaction with his compensation or was it with something else isn't clear to me.

 

[Tony2046]

You equate one team beating another team to one QB beating another QB and team... Patriot defenses stifled all those QB's above.

Brady is special, he's the best, he did his job... team is the reason he has 7 rings.

Give Brady Brees's career and the Saints have four or more championships.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Brady has gone head to head with all of those QBs and won.

Complimentary? I preach that. But do so recognizing that Brady is the the best card up the sleeve that any coach could have.

Rodgers?? 1-4 in the championship games. Prima Donna. Choked. Nothing worse than losing an NFC championship game vs Seattle when given every opportunity to win it. Brady wins that game and more.

Big Ben? Brady put in the time to study while Big "cheeseburger" Ben put on the pounds. Brady embarrassed him. Multiple times.

Mahomes? Great example. I like him. I like Andy Reid. But three 3rd and 10's happened.

Brady has faced all of them and has faced most of them with different coaches and different teams. He still wins.

Brady is special. His last Super Bowl win should have ended all arguments yet here you are.

Yes you can win one or two on the backs of a great defense. You can win one by getting hot at exactly the right time during the playoffs. But to win seven takes something extraordinary. Brady is extraordinary.

You're so wrong on this that I can't believe that this is even a discussion.

If you simply reversed the postseason head-to-head with Brady versus all these guys, or even better, reverse the way each of them played in crunch time in the postseasn, Brady's postseason success and their postseason success would be a heck of a lot closer.

 

[Wozzy]

Agree.

There is no question Tom had a chip on his shoulder regarding being appreciated by the organization and BB. He admitted that during the Jim Gray interviews.

Whether that sentiment was rooted in his dissatisfaction with his compensation or was it with something else isn't clear to me.

If I had to guess, it was that he’d agreed to take less to win but didn’t agree with how they spent those savings. The money didn’t all go to receiving weapons.

It reminds me of that film clip during warmups prior to a game where BB says to Tom (paraphrasing) “Good weather to come out throwing.” Tom responds “Isn’t it always?” They both chuckle and BB says “Well no, not always.”

A QB will always view his best chance at winning as passing the ball, they always want to pass. Tampa had to learn last season that was a mistake, and I have no doubt having “coach Brady” on the field was part of that learning curve.

Tom played in four bowls and won three, I guess we can debate had they gone weapons heavy instead of D heavy would they have won as much? I’ll defer to the coach who sees the big picture.

 

[Wozzy]

Give Brady Brees's career and the Saints have four or more championships.

No doubt, when Brees led the NFL in passing in 2016 but they had the 32nd ranked defense, Tom would have used his magic powers to make defensive stops.

FANtastic!

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

You equate one team beating another team to one QB beating another QB and team... Patriot defenses stifled all those QB's above.

Brady is special, he's the best, he did his job... team is the reason he has 7 rings.

In one thread, you're talking about how the entire offense is totally dependent on the quarterback, since that suits your terrible argument about N'Keal Harry and AJ Brown. Just want to make sure you don't get your opposite thread arguments crossed up again as you laughably contradict yourself.

 

[Wozzy]

In one thread, you're talking about how the entire offense is totally dependent on the quarterback, since that suits your terrible argument about N'Keal Harry and AJ Brown. Just want to make sure you don't get your opposite thread arguments crossed up again as you laughably contradict yourself.

I never said the entire offense was QB dependent. I said receivers are dependent on the QB to throw them the ball. You can’t have bad passing. I said you need good passing to win twenty times already.

You can’t win rings with bad QB play, even if you have a good QB he can’t win with bad O-Line play. You can have the best offense in the league like the Saints in 2016, if your defense is the worst in the league you’ll be lucky to get above 500.

That’s football...

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

No doubt, when Brees led the NFL in passing in 2016 but they had the 32nd ranked defense, Tom would have used his magic powers to make defensive stops.

FANtastic!

The Redskins in the 1980s and the Saints in the mid-2010s are two historical outliers in that team success and quarterback skills were not aligned like they usually are. I'm sure you know this, since you've brought up these two examples 45,000 times and acted like they're the norm.

Also, the Saints situation has already been explained to you numerous times. They went all-in on the cap, in the most extreme way possible, and were dealing with all those backloaded cap hits in years like 2016. They had a severely under-talened roster. Brees had many prime opportunities, and the opposite happened from 2017-2020 when the Saints not only had a solid defense but designed the offense so he only had to make a few money throws per game while racking up screen passes. Those were outstanding supporting casts.

 

[Wozzy]

The Redskins in the 1980s and the Saints in the mid-2010s are two historical outliers in that team success and quarterback skills were not aligned like they usually are. I'm sure you know this, since you've brought up these two examples 45,000 times and acted like they're the norm.

Also, the Saints situation has already been explained to you numerous times. They went all-in on the cap, in the most extreme way possible, and were dealing with all those backloaded cap hits in years like 2016. They had a severely under-talened roster. Brees had many prime opportunities, and the opposite happened from 2017-2020 when the Saints not only had a solid defense but designed the offense so he only had to make a few money throws per game while racking up screen passes. Those were outstanding supporting casts.

Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler... studs, elite QB’s since someone brought it up.

Teams great at personnel find great players, the existence of a good QB on a team full of good players is not an outlier.

Great coaches are also a consistent theme on championship teams. Bill Parcells won with Simms and Hostetler... neither was amazing.

 

[RobertWeathers]

If I had to guess, it was that he’d agreed to take less to win but didn’t agree with how they spent those savings. The money didn’t all go to receiving weapons.

It reminds me of that film clip during warmups prior to a game where BB says to Tom (paraphrasing) “Good weather to come out throwing.” Tom responds “Isn’t it always?” They both chuckle and BB says “Well no, not always.”

A QB will always view his best chance at winning as passing the ball, they always want to pass. Tampa had to learn last season that was a mistake, and I have no doubt having “coach Brady” on the field was part of that learning curve.

Tom played in four bowls and won three, I guess we can debate had they gone weapons heavy instead of D heavy would they have won as much? I’ll defer to the coach who sees the big picture.

Who knows.

I have no proof but I believe there were multiple reasons why Tom needed/wanted a change and one of them being at this stage of his career wanting to be surrounded by uber-talented offensive players. I get it.

I do think later in his career Tom cared more about how they won as opposed to just winning the game being good enough. He basically said that after the MNF game vs the Jets.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler... studs, elite QB’s since someone brought it up.

Teams great at personnel find great players, the existence of a good QB on a team full of good players is not an outlier.

Great coaches are also a consistent theme on championship teams. Bill Parcells won with Simms and Hostetler... neither was amazing.

Hostetler and Foles were both brought in late season and, for a short time, were able to continue excelling. But neither of them even went a full season to prove "the system" could work with them...the shorter timeframe, the less likely a sub-par quarterback is to totally tank everything. It should tell you something that the Giants and Eagles both ditched these guys because they knew it still wasn't the best move to keep them over Wentz and Simms.

Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer both played with historically great defenses. Do you typically see postseasons where teams like the 2000 Ravens or 2002 Bucs have defenses capable of winning games with defensive touchdowns? This is where you fail to grasp what outliers are. You can add Dilfer to that list of players who won a championship but were still replaced the next season. Teams understand the concept of luck versus probability...why can't you? Unlikely things happen. That doesn't mean you should build a strategy around the idea that a lucky thing will repeat itself.

You can name a handful of sub-par quarterbacks who won NFL Championships. I can name dozens and dozens of MVP, or MVP-level quarterbacks who played in the NFL Championship game and in most cases won it. You love to bring up Nick Foles and Joe Flacco. In that same decade, the Super Bowl was basically an annual event for the league's best QBs. You must know this but just choose to be dishonest in your selective fact finding.

Oc course it's possible to win a Super Bowl with any quarterback. Who cares? The fact is that teams overwhelmingly more often win with great ones than with average or below average ones.

 

[Wozzy]

Who knows.

I have no proof but I believe there were multiple reasons why Tom needed a change and one of them being at this stage of his career wanting to be surrounded by uber-talented offensive players. I get it.

I'm sure that Tom was acutely aware of the salary cap hell they were in as much as the team was.

I think back to Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson being held hostage by the Lions, to where they decided to retire early rather than play because Detroit wouldn't let them leave to play on a contender. The rest of the football watching world was deprived of the joy of watching these two finish their careers and possibly win a ring. That's wrong, the Pats did right by the player.

 

[Wozzy]

Hostetler and Foles were both brought in late season and, for a short time, were able to continue excelling. But neither of them even went a full season to prove "the system" could work with them...the shorter timeframe, the less likely a sub-par quarterback is to totally tank everything. It should tell you something that the Giants and Eagles both ditched these guys because they knew it still wasn't the best move to keep them over Wentz and Simms.

Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer both played with historically great defenses. Do you typically see postseasons where teams like the 2000 Ravens or 2002 Bucs have defenses capable of winning games with defensive touchdowns? This is where you fail to grasp what outliers are. You can add Dilfer to that list of players who won a championship but were still replaced the next season. Teams understand the concept of luck versus probability...why can't you? Unlikely things happen. That doesn't mean you should build a strategy around the idea that a lucky thing will repeat itself.

You can name a handful of sub-par quarterbacks who won NFL Championships. I can name dozens and dozens of MVP, or MVP-level quarterbacks who played in the NFL Championship game and in most cases won it. You love to bring up Nick Foles and Joe Flacco. In that same decade, the Super Bowl was basically an annual event for the league's best QBs. You must know this but just choose to be dishonest in your selective fact finding.

Oc course it's possible to win a Super Bowl with any quarterback. Who cares? The fact is that teams overwhelmingly more often win with great ones than with average or below average ones.

Your side needs all sorts of "outliers" and addendums, like only QB's after "insert random year here" count because of some silly reason.

I can find a staggering amount of "outliers," where is one example of a superstar QB bringing a bad or even average team to the Super Bowl?

It doesn't exist... generally when one side can provide numerous examples but the other can't, the conversation is over.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I can find a staggering amount of "outliers," where is one example of a superstar QB bringing a bad or even average team to the Super Bowl?

It doesn't exist... generally when one side can provide numerous examples but the other can't, the conversation is over.

In the salary cap era, every team has the same amount of money to spend. To suggest that in the last 30 years, a superstar quarterback has never carried an average team to the Super Bowl, is so far beyond stupid, it just reinforces you're totally detached from reality.

 

[Wozzy]

In the salary cap era, every team has the same amount of money to spend. To suggest that in the last 35 years, a superstar quarterback has never carried an average team to the Super Bowl, is so far beyond stupid, it just reinforces you're totally detached from reality.

I gave you what, ten or so average QB's who won Super Bowls in recent history, surely you must have one example off the top of your head?

I certainly didn't have to do any research to remember Foles, Flacco or Dilfer.

The year Foles beat the Pats in the Super Bowl, the four QB's in the conference championship games were Nick Foles, Tom Brady, Blake Bortles and Case Keenum... an amazing array of franchise caliber QB's. The one superstar didn't win... but it makes sense somehow.

#outliers

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'm sure that Tom was acutely aware of the salary cap hell they were in as much as the team was.

I tend to agree. Tom knew what Bill wanted to do which was nothing different that what he always did. He appealed to Kraft and lost.

I think back to Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson being held hostage by the Lions, to where they decided to retire early rather than play because Detroit wouldn't let them leave to play on a contender. The rest of the football watching world was deprived of the joy of watching these two finish their careers and possibly win a ring. That's wrong, the Pats did right by the player.

Agree

 

[PatsWSB47]

No doubt, when Brees led the NFL in passing in 2016 but they had the 32nd ranked defense, Tom would have used his magic powers to make defensive stops.

FANtastic!

Brady covered up team weaknesses throughtout his career. Its widely reported that he makes everyone around him better. Yes coaching does too but Brady stood head and shoulders above all othe quarterbacks in that regard. Its not magic dust, enough with the snarky 5th grade arguing.

 

[Wozzy]

I tend to agree. Tom knew what Bill wanted to do which was nothing different that what he always did. He appealed to Kraft and lost.


Agree

It’s kind of silly or selfish that the biggest Brady fans here would rather have retained him, watched him lose in the playoffs, blaming BB the whole time for not putting a good enough team around him rather than let him go to Tampa to enhance his legacy.

It shows a total lack of cap awareness but also very little regard for the player and his feelings.