Ex-Illinois coach Ron Zook lauds Tavon Wilson's versatility

[Ivan]

Never argued with that.

Only thought it is stupid to say this is a great pick just because BB made it, or because his coach from Illinois praised him.

And to say experts have never seen tape on him is plain ******ed.

Show anywhere where I have called this "a great pick?"

His coach definitely knows more about him than Mel Kiper or the posters in this forum.


The only experts are the scouts and coaches evaluating him and they have seen the tape, the self proclaimed "experts" on their couches and in their basements are the ones who haven't watched tape on him and the pretense from draftniks that their opinions are the result of thousands of hours of film work breaking them down is BS, what they really did was read the snippets from Walter Football, Draft Countdown, Draft Scout etc etc, and the reason they hate the pick is because it wasn't part of the groupthink they base their player ratings on.

 

[Sporin]

Frankly, I think that "reaching" is the most idiotic thing to care about in the draft.

I want my team to get the guys my team wants, period. I could care less what round they get them in, and the money difference once you are out of the 1st round is minimal (in context).

It was obvious the talking heads had no clue about Wilson, so I don't really care about there opinion on the matter after the fact. Maybe they were right to ignore him, maybe they just flat out missed him. Heck, 7 Teams had him in for visits, he wasn't completely off the radar.

All the talking heads care about is "getting it right" it's nothing more then gambling for them.

If the kid is going to be good, then he's going to be good and what round he was taken in or what Kiper/etc. think of him has absolutely nothing to do with it.

 

[mayoclinic]

One other note. Illinois had statistically a very good pass defense in 2011. They were one of 4 teams to hold opposing offenses to under 160 yards passing/game. They kept opposing QBs to a completion rate of less than 55%. And they held opposing offenses to under 34% conversion on 3rd downs. There may have been a number of factors involved in that, but Wilson was the captain, leader and best player on that secondary, so he probably had at least something to do with it.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

Why all the hate for folks named Wilson?

Aw. For you, Phil:

Hope Tavon doesn't just float around out there like him, though.

Regards,
Chris

 

[The Gr8est]

Re: Ex-Illinois coach lauds tavon wilson's versatility

This is exactly how i see it as well, just like Mankins and Vollmer Belichick knew another team was ready to move on them and made his move, the same can be said for both trades up in the first, as Belichick would have sat tight had he believed he could do so and get the guys he really wanted. unlike the experts here and draft gurus Belichick does not have a pre-made list of who will go where that he can build a team position by position by, he has to make decisions in real time based upon his best information and insight, and he's brilliant at it, despite his misses, which absolutely every team and GM have. there isn't anyone else i would want in charge of a team and draft, and Patriot fans are going to rue the day he calls it quits and look back on this era as the golden years of Patriots football.

You're doing a gr8 job in this thread Ivan, I agree with everything you've posted in it.

Sadly, I suspect that there is more than one poster who, if given the power to roll back time and overrule BB on the Wilson pick with a player of their own choosing, they would arrogantly do so.

The Wilson pick is not one that had me doing cartwheels, and I would have been happier hearing the names Jerel Worthy, or Peter Konz, but I would never believe that I know more than people who do it for a living, and expect that I know more than they do; especially someone with BB's record.

 

[patsfaninpittsburgh]

Re: Ex-Illinois coach lauds tavon wilson's versatility

You're doing a gr8 job in this thread Ivan, I agree with everything you've posted in it.

Sadly, I suspect that there is more than one poster who, if given the power to roll back time and overrule BB on the Wilson pick with a player of their own choosing, they would arrogantly do so.

The Wilson pick is not one that had me doing cartwheels, and I would have been happier hearing the names Jerel Worthy, or Peter Konz, but I would never believe that I know more than people who do it for a living, and expect that I know more than they do; especially someone with BB's record.

Anyone can be disappointed their binkie wasn't picked.

What's so irritating is that the gaggle of village idiots steadfastly refuse to accept the fact BB was looking for versatility for the secondary and that the type of player who would fit that role wouldn't exactly catch the eye of the draftnik who looks for players that "jump out on film".

In a more rational time, these intellectual lepers would have been driven from the village.

 

[AzPatsFan]

San Diego drafted Kendall Reyes with #49. They took Brandon Taylor in the 3rd at 73.

Thank You. I stand corrected.

 

[mayoclinic]

FWIW, here's a comparison of the measurables and stats of Tavon Wilson, Brandon Meriweather (taken 24th overall in 2007) and Eugene Wilson (taken 36th overall in 2003), all FS for the Pats:

1. Tavon Wilson: 5' 11 6/8", 204#. 4.52 40, 1.60 10-yard split. 4.16 short shuttle, 7.04 3-cone. 32" vertical, 10'4" broad jump. 17 reps @ 225#. Team captain. Selfless player who changed positions based on the needs of the team. Experience at both FS and CB. Experience in zone and man coverage, and in the slot. Played extensively on special teams. Had 81 tackles, 1 sack, 6 passes defended, 1 INT, 6.5 TFL and 2 forced fumbles as a senior. As a senior, his team with 4th in the NCAA in fewest passing yards/game allowed.

2. Brandon Meriweather: 5' 11 5/8#, 195#. 4.47 40, 1.53 10-yard split. 4.33 short shuttle, 7.06 3-cone. 35" vertical, 9'3" broad jump. 11 reps @ 225#. Suspended for stomping on a player during a on-field brawl. Character questions, had some off field incidents. Compared himself to Ed Reed. 2 time second team all-ACC, Thorpe award finalist. Had 91 tackles, 1 sack, 8 PD and 1 INT as a senior. Had 293 tackles in 4 years at Miami.

3. Eugene Wilson: 5' 10 3/8", 192#. 4.48 40, 1.60 10-yard split. 4.05 short shuttle, 7.18 3-cone. 38" vertical, 10'2" broad jump. 15 reps @ 225#. Thorpe award semi-finalist and team captain. Played exclusively CB for the Illini. Had 66 tackles, 2 sacks, 14 passes defended, 1 INT and 2 forced fumbles as a senior. Had 11 interceptions for his career. Also returned punts.

I don't understand the big deal. Wilson was productive for a Big-12 team that had a very solid pass defense. He was a team captain and leader of the secondary. He played multiple positions, and was selfless in switching positions for the good of the team. He was able to support the run and make plays (6.5 TFL and 2 FF) as well as play man and zone coverage, and the slot. He had no character issues. And, most importantly, he passed the test of being scrutinized under a microscope by the Pats' scouting department and coaching staff, who deemed him worth a mid-2nd round pick. Against that is merely the fact that the mediots and the people that make up the Combine and bowl invitations, following the national scouting services, rated him a late round/FA pick in spite of his productivity and chose not to extend any invitations to him.

 

[The Gr8est]

FWIW, here's a comparison of the measurables and stats of Tavon Wilson, Brandon Meriweather (taken 24th overall in 2007) and Eugene Wilson (taken 36th overall in 2003), all FS for the Pats:

1. Tavon Wilson: 5' 11 6/8", 204#. 4.52 40, 1.60 10-yard split. 4.16 short shuttle, 7.04 3-cone. 32" vertical, 10'4" broad jump. 17 reps @ 225#. Team captain. Selfless player who changed positions based on the needs of the team. Experience at both FS and CB. Experience in zone and man coverage, and in the slot. Played extensively on special teams. Had 81 tackles, 1 sack, 6 passes defended, 1 INT, 6.5 TFL and 2 forced fumbles as a senior. As a senior, his team with 4th in the NCAA in fewest passing yards/game allowed.

2. Brandon Meriweather: 5' 11 5/8#, 195#. 4.47 40, 1.53 10-yard split. 4.33 short shuttle, 7.06 3-cone. 35" vertical, 9'3" broad jump. 11 reps @ 225#. Suspended for stomping on a player during a on-field brawl. Character questions, had some off field incidents. Compared himself to Ed Reed. 2 time second team all-ACC, Thorpe award finalist. Had 91 tackles, 1 sack, 8 PD and 1 INT as a senior. Had 293 tackles in 4 years at Miami.

3. Eugene Wilson: 5' 10 3/8", 192#. 4.48 40, 1.60 10-yard split. 4.05 short shuttle, 7.18 3-cone. 38" vertical, 10'2" broad jump. 15 reps @ 225#. Thorpe award semi-finalist and team captain. Played exclusively CB for the Illini. Had 66 tackles, 2 sacks, 14 passes defended, 1 INT and 2 forced fumbles as a senior. Had 11 interceptions for his career. Also returned punts.

I don't understand the big deal. Wilson was productive for a Big-12 team that had a very solid pass defense. He was a team captain and leader of the secondary. He played multiple positions, and was selfless in switching positions for the good of the team. He was able to support the run and make plays (6.5 TFL and 2 FF) as well as play man and zone coverage, and the slot. He had no character issues. And, most importantly, he passed the test of being scrutinized under a microscope by the Pats' scouting department and coaching staff, who deemed him worth a mid-2nd round pick. Against that is merely the fact that the mediots and the people that make up the Combine and bowl invitations, following the national scouting services, rated him a late round/FA pick in spite of his productivity and chose not to extend any invitations to him.

I also suspect that Wilson can make up the small speed difference between he and Meriwether, for example, by running to where BB wants him to be, as opposed to where Meriwether wanted to be.

Wilson's ability to tackle his own teammate resulting in a big gain is still an unknown at this point.

 

[mayoclinic]

I also suspect that Wilson can make up the small speed difference between he and Meriwether, for example, by running to where BB wants him to be, as opposed to where Meriwether wanted to be.

Wilson's ability to tackle his own teammate resulting in a big gain is still an unknown at this point.

In all seriousness, if Wilson turns out to be a slightly less athletic but considerably more disciplined, smarter, and less selfish player than Meriweather then the Pats will have improved their secondary considerably.

 

[JJDChE]

Listing of whose opinion to discount when talking about a player's ability, in order of credibility, least to 'most':

1.) Mother/Father
2.) Agent
3.) Former Coaches

 

[Metaphors]

I don't understand the big deal. Wilson was productive for a Big-12 team that had a very solid pass defense. He was a team captain and leader of the secondary. He played multiple positions, and was selfless in switching positions for the good of the team. He was able to support the run and make plays (6.5 TFL and 2 FF) as well as play man and zone coverage, and the slot. He had no character issues. And, most importantly, he passed the test of being scrutinized under a microscope by the Pats' scouting department and coaching staff, who deemed him worth a mid-2nd round pick. Against that is merely the fact that the mediots and the people that make up the Combine and bowl invitations, following the national scouting services, rated him a late round/FA pick in spite of his productivity and chose not to extend any invitations to him.

Really not that surprising. Wilson wasn't able to get on the radar with his team losing 6 straight to finish the regular season and beating a poor UCLA team in the Desitin Fight Diaper Rash Bowl (or some other such nonsense).

Didn't play in the Shrine Game. Didn't play in the Senior Bowl. Didn't get an invite to the combine. There was no impetus for draftniks to go back and review tape on Wilson. So he goes from a mid-round guy to a late-round guy based on nothing but not having eyeballs on him for 4 months.

When looking at the Pats selection of Wilson, there are a couple of aspects to looks at:

1) He had a number of visits/workouts leading up to the draft. More than a typical late round guy should generate. So he didn't fall completely through the cracks and it is reasonable to assume that at least one team would have Wilson higher than a late round selection.

2) Conventional wisdom and team evaluations didn't exactly correlate well for this safety class:

Barron
Smith
Wilson - 2nd instead of late rounds
Taylor

...Outside of Wilson, pretty much according to plans.

Hardin - 3rd instead of 4th/5th

...Not a tremendous reach and from a major conference.

Thompson - 4th instead of late rounds
McMillian - 4th instead of 5th/6th
Johnson - 4th instead of late rounds
White - 5th instead of late rounds

...Here is the run where it goes off the rails. South Carolina State, Maine, Eastern Washington, Samford. Johnson also didn't get a combine invite. Packers, Saints, Ravens, Cowboys (hardly teams that are known for drafting wildly). All while Iloka, Antonio Allen, Trent Robinson and Markelle Martin were still on the board.

That doesn't justify drafting Wilson in the 2nd round. Only his play can do that. It does suggest that the expectation of Wilson being available day 3 is not a foregone conclusion. If the Pats really wanted to get Wilson (and it looks like they did) then getting him in the 2nd round probably wasn't a bad idea.

Could the Pats have traded down and still gotten him with their pick in the late 2nd. Looks likely. But why take the chance if Wilson was one of the last (if not THE last) item on their to-do list for this draft. There is value in declaring victory and taking your remaining assets (only a single pick in this case) to do some bargain shopping.

 

[THELAWFIRM226]

Personally I can't wait for this kid to be in the starting lineup and see all the haters start praising him.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Really not that surprising. Wilson wasn't able to get on the radar with his team losing 6 straight to finish the regular season and beating a poor UCLA team in the Desitin Fight Diaper Rash Bowl (or some other such nonsense).

Didn't play in the Shrine Game. Didn't play in the Senior Bowl. Didn't get an invite to the combine. There was no impetus for draftniks to go back and review tape on Wilson. So he goes from a mid-round guy to a late-round guy based on nothing but not having eyeballs on him for 4 months.

When looking at the Pats selection of Wilson, there are a couple of aspects to looks at:

1) He had a number of visits/workouts leading up to the draft. More than a typical late round guy should generate. So he didn't fall completely through the cracks and it is reasonable to assume that at least one team would have Wilson higher than a late round selection.

2) Conventional wisdom and team evaluations didn't exactly correlate well for this safety class:

Barron
Smith
Wilson - 2nd instead of late rounds
Taylor

...Outside of Wilson, pretty much according to plans.

Hardin - 3rd instead of 4th/5th

...Not a tremendous reach and from a major conference.

Thompson - 4th instead of late rounds
McMillian - 4th instead of 5th/6th
Johnson - 4th instead of late rounds
White - 5th instead of late rounds

...Here is the run where it goes off the rails. South Carolina State, Maine, Eastern Washington, Samford. Johnson also didn't get a combine invite. Packers, Saints, Ravens, Cowboys (hardly teams that are known for drafting wildly). All while Iloka, Antonio Allen, Trent Robinson and Markelle Martin were still on the board.

That doesn't justify drafting Wilson in the 2nd round. Only his play can do that. It does suggest that the expectation of Wilson being available day 3 is not a foregone conclusion. If the Pats really wanted to get Wilson (and it looks like they did) then getting him in the 2nd round probably wasn't a bad idea.

Could the Pats have traded down and still gotten him with their pick in the late 2nd. Looks likely. But why take the chance if Wilson was one of the last (if not THE last) item on their to-do list for this draft. There is value in declaring victory and taking your remaining assets (only a single pick in this case) to do some bargain shopping.

Good post. This kind of stuff happens every year. At the start of every draft, teams have "grades" for players. Some teams see the draft board with X # of legitimate 1st round grades, 2nd round grades, etc. Clearly, some teams saw Wilson with a 4th, 5th round grade. The Pats saw him with a 2nd or maybe a 3rd round grade. I say IF the Pats had him with a 3rd round grade, possibly their decision was influenced by 3 things which made them chose Wilson in the slot that he was chosen in.

1. The trade value for their pick was lousy thus justifying the pick. Kinda like a stock trade. If you think your stock is worth $20 p/s, but the market says it's worth $18.50 p/s, thats the true market price.

2. They really liked him and based on #1, did not see it as a "reach"

3. Based on positional need/cost for a F/A, they chose Wilson based on the reasoning I've outlined in #1 and #2.

 

[mayoclinic]

Personally I can't wait for this kid to be in the starting lineup and see all the haters start praising him.

Again, if he's disciplined enough to do his assignment, then his combination of size, speed and experience at both CB and FS should make him a contributor. If all he ends up is being a "poor man's" version of Meriweather who actually plays his role instead of freelancing, the secondary shold be improved.

 

[Ring 6]

Ron Zook's first name should be "Ex-" because he was never a great coach (record or longevity-wise)….but he did have the privilege of coaching former Patriot-great and 3 year NFL player Guss Scott. The highlight of Guss's pro career was being drafted in the 3RD ROUND by the Pats. I wonder what Ex-coach's opinion on Scott was that led us to I could find Zook's opinion on Scott.

By the way, to add to our excellent run of DB-ery in drafting DB's - that was the same draft when we took Two-time SB champ and 3-year NFL participant Dexter Reid. Here is what his former coach at UNC said about him:

Dexter's Wiki page has as much info about his time with the Pats as it does about his marijuana felony.

My point? You rarely hear a coach downgrade his players. If Ron Zook gets a call from ESPN Boston to comment on Tayvon, what do you want him to say? He basically said Wilson is versatile and durable - excellent qualities that will hopefully improve an oft-injured group on our team.

I WANT Tayvon Wilson to be the steal of the draft…but with our DB drafting history, I am not holding my breath.

Our DB drafting history is actually very good if you have any clue of what realistic expectations are.

 

[PittPatriot]

In all seriousness, if Wilson turns out to be a slightly less athletic but considerably more disciplined, smarter, and less selfish player than Meriweather then the Pats will have improved their secondary considerably.

Not to be snide…but didn't you just describe James Sanders?

 

[PittPatriot]

Our DB drafting history is actually very good if you have any clue of what realistic expectations are.

Enlighten me, Andy - my expectations might be unreal. Here is my recollection:
1. Busts: Wilhite, Wheatley, Butler, Dexter Reid, and Guss Scott (injuries or not).
2. TBD: McCourty and Ras-I (though optomistic)
3. Hits: Geno Wilson, Asante, Chung.
I am sure there are others, but this is all I recall.

 

[mayoclinic]

Not to be snide…but didn't you just describe James Sanders?

Not snide at all. It's a fair question. Another way of putting it would be that if all Wilson turns out to be is a slightly more athletic version of James Sanders with better coverage ability, then the secondary will be considerably improved.

Sanders was bigger (6' 214#) and slower than Wilson or Meriweather. He was a pure safety, and while he was listed as "free safety" he was more of a strong safety in many ways - and the Pats don't really play FS/SS anyway. Sanders was smart and savvy, he was loyal and a good communicator, he provided leadership for the secondary. But he was just too damn slow out there, especially as the league became more spread out and pass oriented. Sanders could never have been used effectively in man coverage or in the slot. We were always torn with Sanders - we admired his intangibles and at times he provided leadership, savvy and even big plays for the secondary. And at other times he just was too slow and too late to make the play, and we bashed him for it:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/74808-james-sanders-remarkable.html
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/226724-bb-james-sanders.html
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/279683-james-sanders-weak-link.html
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...-james-sanders-difference-improvement-d.html
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ks-about-leadership-heading-into-2010-a.html
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...9-official-james-sanders-apology-thread.html
http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/799102-james-sanders-cut.html

But for all his limitations, wasn't Sanders still better than Sergio Brown, Josh Barrett and James Ihedigbo?

If Wilson provides similar leadership, smarts, savvy and discipline to Sanders but better coverage ability, I'll be fine with using a 2nd round pick on him. Or, to put it differently, wouldn't you settle for a safety with Meriweather's athleticism and skills but Sander's smarts and intangibles? It seems to me that Wilson is as good a blend of those two as anyone who has come around in while.

 

[Metaphors]

Enlighten me, Andy - my expectations might be unreal. Here is my recollection:
1. Busts: Wilhite, Wheatley, Butler, Dexter Reid, and Guss Scott (injuries or not).
2. TBD: McCourty and Ras-I (though optomistic)
3. Hits: Geno Wilson, Asante, Chung.
I am sure there are others, but this is all I recall.

As AJ said, it is all about expectations. Wheatley and Butler were clear disappointments. Reid was a 4th that didn't develop beyond ST. Wilhite was a 4th that did develop into a meaningful (though flawed) contributor. They are exact opposites and shouldn't be grouped together. Scott was never healthy so it is hard to evaluate him wrt draft prowess.

Also have to include Meriweather (played at a high level but was an underachiever) and Sanders (player at a lower level but was an overachiever) in your assessment.

All-in-all, I would rate the Pats under Belichick as a B/B- in the context of getting what the team needs for DB help in the draft. Would be better but Butler and Wheatley were seriously unforced errors in evaluation. So I don't think history should have us leaning one way or the other on Wilson. Just have to see him on the field first.