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Wild New Offense with 2 QB's: The A-11

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by pheenix11, Jul 25, 2008.

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  1. pheenix11

    pheenix11 Rookie

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    I just saw this on Yahoo, this is wild. A high school coach in California is using a new offensive formation that uses 2 QB's both of them in the shotgun. It has 3 down lineman and 3 "potential" wide receivers spread out on each side. Not every receiver can go downfield on each play because of the rules but the defense still has to account for them.

    I would love to chat with Belichick and see his gears start spinning as he comes up with defensive schemes to defend this.

    Story:
    http://highschool.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=825031

    Coach's Page:
    http://www.a11offense.com/

    Video:
    http://www.americanfootballmonthly.com/video/editorials/player.php?id=A11GameFilm510x340.swf
  2. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    They didn't use two quarterbacks, but the last time I saw a funky three down linemen with multiple potential receivers split wide, Nebraska thumped Danny Wuerfel and Steve Spurrier's Florida Gators badly in a college national championship game about ten years ago.
  3. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    All I have to say is - Illegal Formation, Five Yard penalty.

    Belichick would say the best defensive scheme to combat this offense is to make sure that the refs can count to five and see that their aren't five receiving inelible players lined up the line. The A-11 is illegal in the NFL.
  4. A.C Vegas

    A.C Vegas Rookie

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    accually no as long a there are only 5 eliagble recivers it doesn't matter where they are and as long as the "recivers" on the inside do not go down field it legal
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2008
  5. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Actually, the rule specifically states that there has to be 5 ineligible receivers with jersey numbers that reflect ineligible receivers (in other words, you cannot substitute a WR for a tackle on the line). This is to prevent deception. I am right on this I looked it up.

    If you look at the AC-11 blog itself, they admit it is illegal in both the NFL and NCAA and only legal in high school football although they don't specifically state the rule.

    Besides isn't five eligible receivers the same thing as 5 ineligible. Even if you could play a sixth WR on the field, you would have to anounce to the ref that that WR was ineligible prior to the play just like if you want to make a player with a naturally ineligible number an eligible receiver. Whenever Vrabel is in on the offense it is always announced that he is an eligible receiver so there is no deception. You couldn't just put six receivers on the field and deceive other team on which ones are going to play receiver and which ones would stay and block.
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2008
  6. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    That is correct when the quarterback is under center.

    In shotgun offenses (and others where the QB isn't under center, like the wing offenses) the QB is an eligible receiver, and could legally toss a lateral screen to a running back, then run downfield and receive a forward pass.

    Technically you could send 6 receivers downfield, if you handed the ball off to an offensive lineman after a shotgun snap and had him throw it, or otherwise snapped the ball to no one and had a lineman pick it up.
  7. pheenix11

    pheenix11 Rookie

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    What if they used 5 lineman and 4 WR's and had 2 QB's in the backfield in a double shotgun? The 4 WR's could go out and whichever QB didn't get the snap could stay lateral to the other QB. It would kind of be the same as a halfback option but with a QB substituting for the HB and staying in the backfield or in the flat. With both QB's back there they could pass the ball laterally from one to the other if the pressure started coming on one side.

    Kinda crazy but then again at 3am, what isn't :)
  8. Rob0729

    Rob0729 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I still think it is still 5 eligible receivers. The QB being able to go off for a pass still makes it 5 eligible receivers, but the fifth eligible receiver shifts from the RB to the QB in that situations.

    As for anything to do with a lineman, it is illegal touching if a lineman touches the ball without it being tipped by a defender (but that would be during a pass anyway and negate a chance for a second pass) or a fumble. In a case of a fumble, I don't know if there is any scenario where the lineman can actually make a pass since no lineman who ever recovered a fumble would even attempt it. By the way, the illegal touching rule is also proof that you are required to have 5 defined ineligible receivers.

    You still cannot have 5 eligible receivers on the field at any given time. The QB can change eligibility with another receiver, but the number always stays at 5.
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2008
  9. PatsFan37

    PatsFan37 Rookie

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    They say they're running it out of a kick-scrimmage formation and it wouldn't be legal in college because the rules require the intention to kick.

    Piedmont High did well with it, but in each game their opponents had never seen the A-11 before. What will be telling is how they do this season now that their opponents have experience with it.

    I think it's telling that in the last game they played, they were only 14 points down with seven minutes to go, then their opponent (obviously a better team, but also catching on to how to play them) blew them out of the water.
  10. Isaac

    Isaac Rookie

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    I credit the coach for some innovation, but I sure hope this doesn't catch on too widely--it's just not football. Thank goodness it's illegal in the nfl/ncaa.
  11. FreeTedWilliams

    FreeTedWilliams pfadmins PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Your right. I just looked at the base formation, and in that they would only have two eligible recievers.

    You must have seven men ON THE LINE OF SCRIMMAGE, the man lined up farthest to the outside (on the line of scrimmage) one eqach end is an eligble receiver (in High School they usually, don't have the number restrictions like in college and the NFL, so it might be easier to run this) however, still you would have to move two of the guys off the line of scrimmage, quick denoting to the defense who the other two eligible receivers are.
  12. unoriginal

    unoriginal Rookie

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    Only if the RB takes the place of the QB under center before the snap. All other backfield players, and end-of-line players, are elligible under NFL rules. Other rule codes are more permissive; players under center are also elligible receivers.

    There is no such thing as illegal touching of a normal fumble by an offensive lineman, that is a forward pass rule. A lineman can receive a handoff or recover a fumble without penalty - like Logan Mankins did in the endzone against the Colts in the 06 AFC Championship game - with the caveat that lineman cannot receive an intentional forward handoff or fumble; these are considered forward passes and as such consistute illegal touching or are incomplete (e.g., a classic fumblerooski play).

    A backwards or lateral handoff or intentional fumble - like on a reverse, end-around, toss or draw - is still legal.

    All this is of course IMHO, I'm not working for the NFL ref office.
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