Where Patriots Became Patriots

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by PatsFanInVa, Mar 24, 2006.

  1. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    With all the Chicken Little talk floating around, I have to ask you guys something:

    Where did the current stars we are losing become stars?

    Yeah. Foxboro, MA.

    Something we all need to realize about the current model is that we rarely buy a star. We usually buy or draft someone you don't know much about. Five years later, he has been to some big games, learned some big skills, and maximized his potential. Then, he wants to get paid.

    Vinatieri, Givens, and McGinnest - we'd be crazy not to miss them. But at the same time, look at what we don't do. We don't go out and make a run at, say, Randel El, just because he was okay on one Super Bowl team. Dillon was the lone exception - but take a look at his initial Pats contract, before he produced big-time in 04.

    Think about this, people. I hear things about Moulds. Sounds great, and part of me says "oh God I hope so." But another part says, "yeah, and for how much?" In a perverse way, Kraft has brought the Free Agency process full-circle. People use to say "I don't even know who's on my team, wahhhh, how can I follow my favorite player?" What we've learned is, you can't. Ever. Not for sure.

    You only know there's a team called the Pats in those uniforms, year in and year out. And it makes your team loyalty stronger.

    Individuals grow into stars out of the Patriots model, and I wish them well (although so far, the Laws and Milloys of the world aren't looking that appealing.) But it's hard NOT to see, that the departing Names are part of the model - once you're a Name, the Pats are vulnerable to your departure. But not. The confidence is there that the Pats will groom a prospect, whether from Free Agency or from the Draft.

    Who on the Pats has freakish physical gifts? Watson. Seymour. Branch. Bethel Johnson, in terms of speed.

    That's it. The rest of it is toughness, good but not brilliant skills, role-playing, game management, mental discipline, making a vision real. You want to say Brady's got the best arm in the NFL? Wrong and incorrect. Dillon is the best back? Far, far from it. And they weren't in 04 either.

    But for 3 years they were the best TEAM in the NFL. And they will be again. Yes, there are exceptions. Brady is a great talent, and will probably retire a Pat. Seymour looks set to get a big raise this year or next. But very few can get that treatment.

    And some guy you have never heard of is about to replace McGinnest, not this year, maybe not next. But you'll hear his name in 5 years and go "oh yeah. That was the season we were all freaked about 3 guys leaving."

    In Vino Veritas,

  2. patsox23

    patsox23 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Excellent post, well argued. Best Newbie on the board, bar none. My favorite part:

    "But you'll hear his name in 5 years and go 'oh yeah. That was the season we were all freaked about 3 guys leaving.'"

    Don't by shy. Post some more.
  3. broadwayjoe

    broadwayjoe In the Starting Line-Up

    Good Post I hope more people read what you had to say because its just the way the Pats do business and it works for them.
  4. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Changing of the Guard...

    I think there is a changing of the Guard here. The last of of the pre- Belichick stars are now gone, except for Tedy and Kevin and Troy. And Tedy wasn't a star in the '90s. Nor were troy and Kevin. They took three or four years (or more for Troy) to become a starter.

    The Stars on the team are all Belichcik additions many of whom have not yet reached theri prime or first probowl. The core of the team is now Light, Mankins, Koppen, Neal, Watson, Graham, Branch, Brady, Kevin, and Dillon on Offense.

    On Defense the stars are Seymour, VW, Warren, Green, Tedy, Colvin, Vrabel, Hobbs, Asante, Gay, Wilson and Harrison.

    All have been added since Bellichick arrived. Quite a crew of potential probowlers isn't it?

    Long live the old core departees Milloy, Law, McG, TJ, Bledsoe, Woody.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2006
  5. PatsSaintsSox

    PatsSaintsSox Practice Squad Player

    great post, you had a lot of great points...good job...
  6. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    Great point about that...it's almost like players come here get thir rings..learn about what it takes to be a champion and leave for money... I do see the way that things are done...Dillon was a real exception to this...Washington was in and then gone..and there were a few others...but the core really came through the system...so to speak..
  7. DarrylS

    DarrylS PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Very good post, bottom line is when January 07 comes upon us, how many wins do you think we will have imo conservatively 11, possibly 12, this team will be forminable and make us proud once again. The amount of $$ that Givens, Ashworth, Willie and Vinateri have signed for is obscene and would not present good value for this team. Have confidence that there are a lot of inner goings on and not really worried as much I would have like to have kept all these guys, would not do so at these inflated prices...
  8. Digger44

    Digger44 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

    bingo, we have bingo.
  9. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Great to Newbies

    I just wanted to stop in and say thanks to you guys for being receptive to newbies. I've gotten addicted to the site, but I get home from work and boom, whatever was up the last day is under a slew of posts (usually pretty good ones at that.) So, a belated thank-you.

  10. patsfan55

    patsfan55 In the Starting Line-Up

    #95 Jersey

    a lot of the newbies this yr stink

    you are def an exception
  11. PATSNUTme

    PATSNUTme Paranoid Homer Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

    #75 Jersey

    Your only a newbie for your first post. After that you are what you are. You , my man, are my idea of a real Patriots fan.:rocker:
  12. GoWhalers

    GoWhalers On the Game Day Roster

    I agree that the team is and will be fine. They will have enough of the most important compponents to be competetive with any other team in the league.

    I guess the one thing that has really diminished over the last several years is the concept of players retiring with their original teams. It's a noble concept, but really seldom happens in practice, even for the all-time greats: Emmitt Smith in Arizona, Rice in Oakland(!) and Denver, and closer to home, Adam and Willie. You can't forget that Joe Montana played for the Chiefs in the nadir of his career as well.

    So what will happen when they retire? Will they sign 1-day contracts to retire as Patriots? Would the fans even accept it, especially in the case of Adam? Will that magically solve everything?

    Honestly, it might...
  13. Seymour93

    Seymour93 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

    Good post PFiV, but how long can we rely on 'unknowns' becoming stars three years down the road? Sure it's worked for us... but others have panned ie: Brock Williams, Joe Panos, Rich Tylski, Brendan Stai, Donald Hayes, Earthwind Moreland, Monty Beisel, etc. I doubt BB envisioned Vrabel to become our second best LB when he was signed back in '01 or Branch to evolve into a Top 10 WR when he was drafted. It's really just a crapshoot. Simply put, if you have good scouts your more likely to find the right guys. Rodney Harrison, Roosevelt Colvin, Otis Smith, Roman Phifer, and Bryan Cox were also proven NFL players when signed BTW.
  14. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    The proven guys

    Point taken, Tex. In fact, Colvin was more a factor in Chicago than NE - so far.

    But by the same token, none of the others were. Harrison was a beast in SD - but they decided there was no gas left in the tank. Maybe there's some movement in both directions there - you spot what should be a good fit, you go for it. Much simpler.

    Okay, this one I hate to even say, because it makes one look foolish to say it, but...

    There's a lot of talk about guys who haven't panned out. Much of it is, as of now, true. In other cases, well, to be a little off the subject (free agents), think about Asante Samuel (draftee). He's inconsistent, in a word - but he use to be terrible (whereas Eugene Wilson was shining pretty bright pretty quick.)

    For the ones off the roster (and/or out of the league), fine. But if they're still working on them, that's something different. Reports of their demises may be greatly exaggerated - I remember reading once what a disappointment "The McGinnest Experiment" was, a couple years after he was drafted. While they're still here, I wouldn't feel secure writing any of these guys off.

    Except freaking Bethel Johnson. I'm tired of waiting for him to become Deion Branch Jr.

    Okay really? Even (wince) Bethel.

    Last edited: Mar 24, 2006
  15. jczxohn1

    jczxohn1 PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    Sort of along this line--
    What does the success of Pats FA's who get signed away for bigger contracts (Givens, Ashworth, Woody, etc.) than we are willing to pay them mean in the eyes of draftees who may anticipate playing here? It seems to me they would welcome the opportunity to go somewhere that they thought would allow them to "become the best they could be". This is borne out by the comments of Ashworth on his signing by Seattle.
    We bemoan the losses of these players we have become so familiar with, but their successes will only make it easier for us to acquire good young players later. And, with late round draft picks limited to 4 yr contracts, FA's who were dissatisfied with their initial situation may want to attend our "finishing school" as well.
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2006
  16. Pats Fanatic

    Pats Fanatic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    #54 Jersey

    Great posts PatsFanInVa , hope you stick around here.
  17. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

    As long as you guys'll have me, Fanatic. XLI here we come.
  18. Pats726

    Pats726 Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

    I think the fact that the FAs that have departed ALL were over payed...in Patriot terms mean a great deal, Are they better players than some?? POssibly..but they have the Patriot glow to them..championships..even thought a few never got their ring...playing for the Patriots is a special thing to other teams..they get the bucks, the eams over pay and mess up THEIR salary structure...and teh Patriots move on!! Yes, I would have loved it if WM and AV stayed..but this sort of slow churning is what the NFL is these days. To rookies?? It has to mean a lot..think of it..learning and becoming what a football player is,,maybe winning a ring and then..the green!!

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