Welcome to PatsFans.com

What does Theo know anyway? They've only one 2 World Series

Discussion in 'Red Sox Fan Forum' started by Lifer, Aug 3, 2008.

  1. Lifer

    Lifer Banned

    Joined:
    May 10, 2007
    Messages:
    3,293
    Likes Received:
    26
    Ratings:
    +26 / 0 / -0

    ok, i can see people are going to miss Manny. Hes a hall of fame hitter.

    But puh-leeeeze, these people acting like the Sox got hosed ( no pun) are killing me.

    Jason Bay is not some stiff. And it saves the Red Sox 13 million in salary they can go out and get a top player with it. So dont judge the trade now, lets see what they end up with.

    I think Theo, like BB, has earned the benefit of the doubt on these moves.
  2. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    7,669
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0

    What moronic thinking.

    Manny was instrumental in both championships: no Manny no titles.


    A more apt comparison is if Tom Brady or Rodney Harrison became an arsehole and left the team, and then media/people were trashing him and saying success was all Belichick so no worries, giving no credit to the Hall of Fame player.
  3. Foley

    Foley Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Who was saying that Manny wasn't a huge part of the World Series wins? When has that fact ever been argued?

    The point is that Theo has done very well for himself since coming to the Red Sox, so just because he traded Manny does not mean he is an idiot and the trade is terrible. He should be given the benefit of the doubt because his tenure as a GM has been filled with far more good than bad.
  4. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    7,669
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0

    This thread is RETARDED because people haven't been saying the Manny trade was a bad move, the discussion has been on why Boston media and sheep fans have to trash superstars everytime they leave?

    Why does Lucchino and the media do this all the time, and why do so many dumbass fans just eat it up and be brainwashed?

    Just move on, enjoy the Jason Bay era, be happy for when Manny was here, and stop embarrassing the entire fanbase by acting like a bunch of jackasses.
  5. Foley

    Foley Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    People badmouthed Manny because Manny badmouthed the entire organization for weeks before his departure. People trash him because he acted like an ass. Everyone is in agreement that Manny's time in Boston was a hugely successful time for the Red Sox, they are just pissed at him for acting the way he did in his last few weeks here.

    Had Manny acted like a decent human being for the rest of the year and not made idiotic comments than there would be no negative press around him.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2008
  6. patriotspride

    patriotspride Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,214
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    lmao the only person embarrassing the fan base is you . god your a clown
  7. maverick4

    maverick4 Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    7,669
    Likes Received:
    17
    Ratings:
    +17 / 0 / -0

    Haha, the dumbass doesn't even realize he sounds like an idiot.
  8. patriotspride

    patriotspride Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,214
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    we are all well aware of that
  9. CMcCartney

    CMcCartney Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2008
    Messages:
    193
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Anyone who thinks Manny wasn't a huge part of the Sox' success during their two World Series runs is an idiot.. Having said that, Manny was an idiot during the last month he was here, and he has no one to blame but himself.. He shot his way out of town as they say.. This crap about the front office bad-mouthing him is foolish.. Manny's own words and actions got himself shipped out of town. I for one think this was all done by his agent, the esteemed (a-hole) Scott Boras.. Boras gets nothing if Boston extends Manny's option.. At the very least, Boras should have been able to control his client (if, in fact, he wasn't behind it himself).
    I think Bay is going to be great here.. The casual fan might not know much about him, so many will say Boston got short-changed.. I think a year from now it'll turn out to be a good deal.
  10. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,852
    Likes Received:
    34
    Ratings:
    +39 / 2 / -0

    I have no problem criticizing Manny for his recent behavior, and I don't feel like the media has been overly harsh towards him, he's certainly earned it. It's controversy and the media loves that, so they oversensationalize everything, but Manny made his own bed. That being said, if the Dodgers were to play the Sox tomorrow, Manny would still get a standing ovation his first time up to the plate.
  11. CMcCartney

    CMcCartney Rookie

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2008
    Messages:
    193
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    Good article on ESPN by Buster Olney about Manny:

    Our colleague Peter Gammons has reported that Manny Ramirez told his former teammates in Boston that he will be looking for a four-year, $100 million contract this offseason. I'd say there's an excellent chance of that happening if his agent, Scott Boras, can pull off some kind of Vulcan mind-control trick on a helpless owner.

    But if the Spock ears don't grow in for Boras … well, Ramirez will be lucky if he gets half of what he's looking for.

    Here's what Manny has going for him: He's a great hitter who is destined to gain entrance into the Hall of Fame, a lofty standing he apparently intends to reinforce during the final two months of the 2008 season; Ramirez is 4-for-8 so far with the Dodgers, and hit his first home run for L.A. on Saturday.

    But there's a whole lot working against Manny:

    1. He'll be 37 years old in May, and some executives have grown increasingly leery of aging ballplayers in a way that they were not 10 years ago, or even two years ago, before the sport's testing for performance-enhancing drugs was toughened, and before the federal crackdown on human growth hormone vendors. Players, it seemed, had discovered a fountain of youth and remained very productive into their late 30s and early 40s. But this year, in particular, officials are noticing that 35-year-old ballplayers suddenly look 35 again. This concern alone probably ensures that a player of Ramirez's age would never get more than a three-year deal.

    2. He's a poor defensive outfielder and will worsen in the years ahead, so more than likely, most of his suitors in the offseason will be from the American League.

    3. And here's the biggie: He has cemented a reputation as someone who has zero professional integrity and who does not care about winning.

    He forced his way out of Boston by making those he worked for believe that he was intent on sabotaging its season -- and keep in mind that his former employers are not some incompetent bumpkins with an onerous management style. The Red Sox have a chance to win their third World Series in five seasons, their front office is highly respected and they are managed by Terry Francona, someone whose own personal reputation in the game is pristine. Their tacit evaluation of Ramirez as a quitter will be regarded with deference.

    The business of baseball relies heavily on word of mouth. At some point this winter, some club executive will look wistfully at Ramirez's stats and wonder if maybe he would be a good fit for the executive's lineup, and that executive will pick up the phone and call an old friend who now works for the Red Sox. And that old friend will walk him through Manny's transgressions that we already know about and probably some that we haven't heard yet. And the semi-interested executive will hang up the phone and think: Not a chance in hell …

    Every player has days that are worse than other days, and some that are better; the same could be said for almost any member of the world's working force. But there is a simple honor that is supposed to be contained within the equation: No matter what you do, you are expected to exert a base level of effort. You show up on time, you complete the tasks assigned to you.

    If you bake bagels and you don't do this, you are fired. If you operate a dairy farm and you don't milk the cows twice a day, the farm collapses. If you're a lawyer and you miss filing deadlines, your firm will find another lawyer.

    Because of his extraordinary skill to hit a baseball, Ramirez is guaranteed to make $20 million this season, regardless of whether he plays well or not. But he seems to have crossed an ethical line that few others have, and this winter, it will cost him financially. Oh, sure, he's not about to starve. Somebody will probably dangle a $12-13 million annual salary for two years, maybe three.

    But he probably won't make any more money than he would have if he simply honored his contract and played with integrity and prompted the Red Sox to pick up $40 million in options for 2009 and 2010.

    And through his gambit, he has sacrificed a lot that has nothing to do with money. It is unclear whether Ramirez cares about that.
  12. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,852
    Likes Received:
    34
    Ratings:
    +39 / 2 / -0

    4 Years 100$ Million? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA:rofl::rofl::rofl:
  13. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,094
    Likes Received:
    214
    Ratings:
    +505 / 6 / -2

    I agree. Manny was instramental in the 2 WS titles, will be missed, but had to go. Bay isn't Manny (not many are), but he's a very, very good player.

    As for Theo and the 2 WS titles, he's a mediocre GM with lots of resources. The WS teams were largely built on the moves of other people. Whether it's the players he inherrited, or the Beckett deal when he was in a Gorilla suit. He's made some nice plays (think Papi, Pedroia, Papelbon), don't get me wrong, but he's not a BB type component to the success of the Redsox.
  14. scout

    scout Rookie

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2004
    Messages:
    7,715
    Likes Received:
    30
    Ratings:
    +44 / 0 / -2

    #15 Jersey

    I thought Theo traded one of the most popular Red Sox players (at the time) which subsequently brought the Red Sox their first World Series in 86 years? I thought that Theo went out to Arizona with other Sox personnel and persuaded Curt to sign with the Sox, which subsequently brought the Red Sox their first World Series in 86 years. Ah, what other baseball GM has been more successful the last few years..........Cashman?
  15. Real World

    Real World Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 15, 2006
    Messages:
    27,094
    Likes Received:
    214
    Ratings:
    +505 / 6 / -2

    What does Cashman have to do with the price of banana's? He's another mediocre, or average if you prefer, GM who benefits from unlimited resources IMO. Cashman's mediocrity is irrelevent to the conversation, but if it benefits you, I consider both to be of similar quality. My point was that Theo is credited with alot that he was not responsible for. That's not to say he's a terrible GM, just overrated. To the winner goes the spoils I guess.
  16. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,852
    Likes Received:
    34
    Ratings:
    +39 / 2 / -0

    I think you're selling Theo short. He's not Billy Beene, but he's much better than Cashman, who he is spending $70 million dollars less than this year. He's also spending less than Detroit and the Mets, and has a more successful team. The Nomar trade took balls, and without it they don't win the WS. And he's rebuilt the farm system by refocusing the franchise on scouting, as opposed to out bidding the Yankees, which is why he has to be compared to Cashman. He's definitely an above average GM. Though not an all time great GM.
  17. patriotspride

    patriotspride Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2005
    Messages:
    4,214
    Likes Received:
    1
    Ratings:
    +1 / 0 / -0

    theo is a excellent gm. he turned a once vacant farm system into a pipe line for all stars and starting talent. youk Dustin papelbon delcarmen ellsbury moss Lester buchholz masterson. that alone makes him a excellent gm. hes hit and miss on trades and free agents . but all gms are. the end result is what counts the most and hes got two rings. many gms have tried and failed for 86 long years.
  18. Foley

    Foley Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2006
    Messages:
    540
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0 / 0 / -0

    The major problems with Theo are a handful of bad trades. Find me a GM who hasn't made bad trades. Everyone loves Billy Beane, but he traded Aaron Harang for Jose Guillen, Tim Hudson for absolutely nothing, and Ted Lilly for Bobby Kielty (plus others that I don't remember of the top of my head). He has certainly made a lot of good trades too, but he has more than his fair share of clunkers.

    Theo has dropped payroll in 4 of the 6 off seasons he has been GM, and after the Manny trade the Sox rank 7th in the majors in payroll, after ranking 4th going into the season. Being successful with a declining payroll is extremely impressive.
  19. Wildo7

    Wildo7 Totally Full of It

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2007
    Messages:
    8,852
    Likes Received:
    34
    Ratings:
    +39 / 2 / -0

    I think Billy Beane is the best GM in the league by far. And I also see all of those trades as positives. He traded those guys at the pinnacle of their value and Hudson was leaving at the end of that year anyway. Lilly and Harang are both shadows of their former selves, with the latter admittedly being because of injury. I agree though, that no GM is without a bad trade or two, it's impossible. But what Beane does with his payroll year in and year out is amazing, and if he had Theo's payroll he'd probably have 5 WS rings.

    I agree here, and that's what most people ignore. People just think that it's Red Sox and Yankees and everyone else but what they ignore is that the Sox trail the Yankees by $70 million and there are 3 teams with higher payrolls than us. How do the Sox rank 7th now though, aren't we paying Manny's salary for the rest of the year?
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2008
  20. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Rookie

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2004
    Messages:
    9,891
    Likes Received:
    44
    Ratings:
    +84 / 2 / -2


    Your both right - but are both missing the point.

    Theo didn't want to trade Manny - Manny wanted to be traded and forced the issue. Everyone would have been perfectly happy to see Manny behave and play out his contract (except Manny and Boras).

    So one can't credit or blame Theo or anyone else regarding this trade. It was making the best of a bad situation - a bad situation created by Manny and Boras.

Share This Page

unset ($sidebar_block_show); ?>