What does Theo know anyway? They've only one 2 World Series

[Real World]

I think you're selling Theo short. He's not Billy Beene, but he's much better than Cashman, who he is spending $70 million dollars less than this year. He's also spending less than Detroit and the Mets, and has a more successful team. The Nomar trade took balls, and without it they don't win the WS. And he's rebuilt the farm system by refocusing the franchise on scouting, as opposed to out bidding the Yankees, which is why he has to be compared to Cashman. He's definitely an above average GM. Though not an all time great GM.

Money is irrelevent to both franchises, I think we can come to pretty reasonable agreement on that. Sure the Yankees spend more, but the Yankees also vastly overpay for their own players as a matter of choice. i.e. they bid against themselves all the time cuz they're the Yankees. Again, though, sure the Yanks spend more. The Sox though spend more than every single other team in the league. they can afford to pay for their mistakes. Let me repeat again that I am not saying Theo is a terrible GM, I'm saying he is afforded luxuries, and advantages that few GM's have, and that he gets credit for moves he didn't make.

As for Cashman, he's a mirror of Theo, or close to it. With Cashman, the wonder is what moves are his, and what moves are ownerships. Either way, he's the GM, so the moves fall on him.

 

[Wildo7]

Money is irrelevent to both franchises, I think we can come to pretty reasonable agreement on that. Sure the Yankees spend more, but the Yankees also vastly overpay for their own players as a matter of choice. i.e. they bid against themselves all the time cuz they're the Yankees. Again, though, sure the Yanks spend more. The Sox though spend more than every single other team in the league. they can afford to pay for their mistakes. Let me repeat again that I am not saying Theo is a terrible GM, I'm saying he is afforded luxuries, and advantages that few GM's have, and that he gets credit for moves he didn't make.

As for Cashman, he's a mirror of Theo, or close to it. With Cashman, the wonder is what moves are his, and what moves are ownerships. Either way, he's the GM, so the moves fall on him.

This isn't true this year, both the Mets and Tigers are spending more than the Sox this year and there are 9 other teams within $15 million of the Sox. So of those 9 teams, I think it's safe to say that Theo has done the best job, and he isn't a mirror of Cashman. Yes the Sox have the luxury to spend a lot, but they aren't in the same league as the Yankees by $70 million, and still compete with them. So while they have an advantage over most MLB teams, the Yankees sort of cancel that out by driving up the price on everyone they go out to get.

 

[Real World]

This isn't true this year, both the Mets and Tigers are spending more than the Sox this year and there are 9 other teams within $15 million of the Sox. So of those 9 teams, I think it's safe to say that Theo has done the best job, and he isn't a mirror of Cashman. Yes the Sox have the luxury to spend a lot, but they aren't in the same league as the Yankees by $70 million, and still compete with them. So while they have an advantage over most MLB teams, the Yankees sort of cancel that out by driving up the price on everyone they go out to get.

This year doesn't speak for a GM's overall career. That a team might jump a little bit in terms of payroll in order to add a piece like Cabrera or Santana, doesn't cover the 5+ years of Theo's tenure. Furthermore, when teams send $7 million to pay for a players salary, $12 million to jettison a recent signee out of town, or $52 million in transfer fees, it doesn't show up on the payroll sheet. Not many teams can do that in the league. This doesn't even take into consideration the advantages teams like the Sox & Yankees enjoy in signing draftees and international free agents. How many top talents slide to them because of "signability" issues. Let me repeat so as to be clear, I'm not calling Theo terrible. I just feel that he's an average GM, who has the benefit of amenities few GM's enjoy.

 

[patriotspride]

there is no comparison between the Yankee's and the redsox when it comes to payroll. there is a 70 million dollar difference and its only going to get wider when the new Yankee stadium is open. fenway has a 38000 capacity give or take? whats the new Yankee stadium going to be 60000 ? plus all those new luxury boxes fenway will never have. Yankee fans always like to think the sox have the same advantage as the Yankee's. do the sox have a higher payroll than most teams ? yes but they play in the same division as the Yankee's making that advantage minimal. if the sox played in another division Yankee fans would have a point.

 

[Foley]

I think Billy Beane is the best GM in the league by far. And I also see all of those trades as positives. He traded those guys at the pinnacle of their value and Hudson was leaving at the end of that year anyway. Lilly and Harang are both shadows of their former selves, with the latter admittedly being because of injury. I agree though, that no GM is without a bad trade or two, it's impossible. But what Beane does with his payroll year in and year out is amazing, and if he had Theo's payroll he'd probably have 5 WS rings.

Lilly has been pretty good this year, and despite a poor year Harang has been one of the best starters in the NL for the past several years. One off year doesn't mean a player is a shell of his former self (ie. Lowell in 2005). Do you really think that Ted Lilly is less valuable than a 4th OF? Or Harang less valuable than half a season of Jose Guillen? Hudson was certainly leaving anyway, but the idea of trades is to get something of value back. He didn't do that.

Oakland was a sub-.500 team last year and will probably be a sub-.500 team this year. For all the adulation that Beane gets, the only time his teams were really great was when they were succeeding with guys brought before he was GM (Tejada, Hudson, Chavez, Giambi). He certainly brought in some of his own (Zito and Mulder, namely), but most of the stars of those teams Beane had nothing to do with. Since Tejada left after 2003, they have made it to the playoffs once.

Over the past 5 years the A's farm system has an average ranking of 17 (per Baseball America's organizational rankings). Since a good draft in 2002 when they had 7 of the first 39 picks, their drafting has been pretty underwhelming.

As far as the idea that he'd be good with more money... whenever he's had money to spend it went to the wrong players. $21M for Esteban Loaiza. He had the option of signing Eric Chavez or Miguel Tejada to a long term contract and picked the wrong one. The only time he's been good with FA signings is when he was scraping the barrel for guys like Jack Cust or Frank Thomas, but his record for spending money on real big name FAs (whenever he's been given the chance) is pretty poor.

 

[Foley]

This year doesn't speak for a GM's overall career. That a team might jump a little bit in terms of payroll in order to add a piece like Cabrera or Santana, doesn't cover the 5+ years of Theo's tenure.

When the organization took over in 2002 the payroll stood at $108M, and at the start of this year it was at $133M, a difference of $25M. Most of the other big market teams have increased their payroll by a significant amount more.

Angels: $58M
Cubs: $43M
Mets: $43M
Tigers: $82M
White Sox: $64M
Yankees: $84M

For a big market team, only expanding your payroll by $25M over the course of 6 years is a very low number. This is not a one time jump where teams splurge to get one player in an offseason.This has been a steady increase over the course of several years.

Furthermore, when teams send $7 million to pay for a players salary, $12 million to jettison a recent signee out of town, or $52 million in transfer fees, it doesn't show up on the payroll sheet. Not many teams can do that in the league.

The Arizona Diamondbacks spent $22M in 2006 to get Russ Ortiz off their roster. That is the most amount a team has ever eaten to release or trade a player. In addition, they got nothing back for it. The Red Sox traded Manny and Renteria away (for a sum less than Arizona paid to get rid of Ortiz), and were at least able to get some valuable players back for it. And it didn't hurt the D'Backs any since the next year they won their division and made the playoffs for the first time since 2001. Teams throw money away all the time, regardless of their payroll size.

This doesn't even take into consideration the advantages teams like the Sox & Yankees enjoy in signing draftees and international free agents. How many top talents slide to them because of "signability" issues.

More often than not, "signability" issues have little to do with money. Craig Hansen's issue was the desire to have a major league deal. Casey Kelley's issues were that he already agreed to go to college for football, and there was some disagreement over wheter he should be a pitcher or a shortstop. They didn't sign these two because they offered an absurd amount of money, they were just successful in negotiating.

As far as international FA... when was the last time Boston signed an IFA to big money? And it was the small market A's that signed this years big name IFA to a record setting contract.

 

[Real World]

When the organization took over in 2002 the payroll stood at $108M, and at the start of this year it was at $133M, a difference of $25M. Most of the other big market teams have increased their payroll by a significant amount more.

Angels: $58M
Cubs: $43M
Mets: $43M
Tigers: $82M
White Sox: $64M
Yankees: $84M

For a big market team, only expanding your payroll by $25M over the course of 6 years is a very low number.

That's disengenuous. You're cherry picking seasons. The Sox have been higher than $133 million in the last 6 years. They were at $143 million last year, and that doesn't count the $50+ million they paid for the rights to Dice-K. The Sox have the luxury, having won a WS 2004, and then another last year, of dropping payroll while raising prices. The Sox & Yankees were the first teams to go over $100 million, and they both did it (with the Dodgers) in the same season. the Sox have been over $100 million in every season since, except for 2003 when they were at $99 million. In 2004 they spent $127m, 2nd to the Yankees, with the Angels 3rd at $100m even.

The point is that the Sox, and thus Theo, have options that most other teams don't. Some of these teams can bump it up to make a run, but they can't sustain the magnitude of payroll, or bad contracts that the Sox & Yankees can.

 

[Real World]

The Arizona Diamondbacks spent $22M in 2006 to get Russ Ortiz off their roster. That is the most amount a team has ever eaten to release or trade a player. In addition, they got nothing back for it. The Red Sox traded Manny and Renteria away (for a sum less than Arizona paid to get rid of Ortiz), and were at least able to get some valuable players back for it. And it didn't hurt the D'Backs any since the next year they won their division and made the playoffs for the first time since 2001. Teams throw money away all the time, regardless of their payroll size.More often than not, "signability" issues have little to do with money. Craig Hansen's issue was the desire to have a major league deal. Casey Kelley's issues were that he already agreed to go to college for football, and there was some disagreement over wheter he should be a pitcher or a shortstop. They didn't sign these two because they offered an absurd amount of money, they were just successful in negotiating.

Arizona's payroll is what? What division do they play in? You pointed out a team that won the World Series and then had to have a firesale because they were litterally going bankrupt. Sure the dbacks released Ortiz, but it's not as if they could turn around and drop $50 million to talk to Dice-K, and another $50 million to sign him.

Right, Kelley was supposed to go to college. The Redsox gave him $3 million reasons not to. Aside from Kelley, the benefit of cash comes later in the draft, where the Yankees can take 1st & 2nd round talent in the 8th round, and over pay substantially. Dellan Betances, and Carmen Angellini are two guys the Yankees drafted late, and bribed with hoards of cash.

 

[Foley]

That's disengenuous. You're cherry picking seasons. The Sox have been higher than $133 million in the last 6 years. They were at $143 million last year, and that doesn't count the $50+ million they paid for the rights to Dice-K. The Sox have the luxury, having won a WS 2004, and then another last year, of dropping payroll while raising prices. The Sox & Yankees were the first teams to go over $100 million, and they both did it (with the Dodgers) in the same season. the Sox have been over $100 million in every season since, except for 2003 when they were at $99 million. In 2004 they spent $127m, 2nd to the Yankees, with the Angels 3rd at $100m even.

Call it what you want, but when I'm looking at the payroll trends of an administration, I'm going to look at the years they've been there. I don't see how it's cherry picking when I'm looking at the entire span of time they've been here. The total number may have fluctuated up and down, but on a whole it's been in the same area. And this does not change the fact that right now, there are a lot of teams catching up the the Red Sox in payroll and it is no longer a major advantage for them. They may have been among the first to hit $100M, but right now they are in comparable waters with a number of teams.

The point is that the Sox, and thus Theo, have options that most other teams don't. Some of these teams can bump it up to make a run, but they can't sustain the magnitude of payroll, or bad contracts that the Sox & Yankees can.

The Tigers, Mets and White Sox are still seeing tremendous profit despite increased payroll, so I don't see why it won't continue if the team allows it to do so. None of those teams (Detroit, NYM, both Chicago team, LAA) have any significant disadvantage in payroll to the Red Sox. Would you really be surprised if The Tigers or The Mets shelled out $75M to talk with Yu Darvish? I sure as hell wouldn't be.

Arizona's payroll is what? What division do they play in? You pointed out a team that won the World Series and then had to have a firesale because they were litterally going bankrupt. Sure the dbacks released Ortiz, but it's not as if they could turn around and drop $50 million to talk to Dice-K, and another $50 million to sign him.

I don't see what the D'Backs of 2001 have to do with them now, since it's an entirely new ownership group, FO, and obviously players. Two entirely different teams. When they released Ortiz, they had the 8th lowest payroll in the majors. And while the division sucks this year, the NL West also boasted the NL wild card last year. Winning 90 games is an impressive feat, regardless of the division. A low payroll team releasing 22M off their roster and still making the playoffs the following year doesn't really show me that a low payroll team has zero margin for error.

Right, Kelley was supposed to go to college. The Redsox gave him $3 million reasons not to. Aside from Kelley, the benefit of cash comes later in the draft, where the Yankees can take 1st & 2nd round talent in the 8th round, and over pay substantially. Dellan Betances, and Carmen Angellini are two guys the Yankees drafted late, and bribed with hoards of cash.

That $3M is still a paltry sum compared to what low payroll teams give their high draftees on a yearly basis. The Rays managed to spend more than twice that on the number 1 pick. And the Pirates are willing to spend $5M on their own.

And when was the last time the Boston spent $1+M on a player outside of the first round? Just because New York frequently spends $1M on late round picks and buys a lot of international talent doesn't mean Boston does.

 

[Real World]

Call it what you want, but when I'm looking at the payroll trends of an administration, I'm going to look at the years they've been there. I don't see how it's cherry picking when I'm looking at the entire span of time they've been here. The total number may have fluctuated up and down, but on a whole it's been in the same area. And this does not change the fact that right now, there are a lot of teams catching up the the Red Sox in payroll and it is no longer a major advantage for them. They may have been among the first to hit $100M, but right now they are in comparable waters with a number of teams.The Tigers, Mets and White Sox are still seeing tremendous profit despite increased payroll, so I don't see why it won't continue if the team allows it to do so. None of those teams (Detroit, NYM, both Chicago team, LAA) have any significant disadvantage in payroll to the Red Sox. Would you really be surprised if The Tigers or The Mets shelled out $75M to talk with Yu Darvish? I sure as hell wouldn't be. I don't see what the D'Backs of 2001 have to do with them now, since it's an entirely new ownership group, FO, and obviously players. Two entirely different teams. When they released Ortiz, they had the 8th lowest payroll in the majors. And while the division sucks this year, the NL West also boasted the NL wild card last year. Winning 90 games is an impressive feat, regardless of the division. A low payroll team releasing 22M off their roster and still making the playoffs the following year doesn't really show me that a low payroll team has zero margin for error. That $3M is still a paltry sum compared to what low payroll teams give their high draftees on a yearly basis. The Rays managed to spend more than twice that on the number 1 pick. And the Pirates are willing to spend $5M on their own.

And when was the last time the Boston spent $1+M on a player outside of the first round? Just because New York frequently spends $1M on late round picks and buys a lot of international talent doesn't mean Boston does.

Look, you and I have been down this road before. I think the Sox and Yankees (more so the Yanks) have advantages that other teams don't enjoy, and you disagree. You're not going to convince me otherwise, just like I won't convince you.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

Look, you and I have been down this road before. I think the Sox and Yankees (more so the Yanks) have advantages that other teams don't enjoy, and you disagree. You're not going to convince me otherwise, just like I won't convince you.

Of course the Sox and Yankees have the advantage over these other teams, both the Sox and Yankees have the ability to buy there way out of mistakes:

Imagine if you were the GM of the Royals and you traded:

Gabbard (steady 5th left starter) and Murphy (.271 15 HR 73 RBI) for a washed up non-steriod using Greg Gane.

Signed both Edgar Renteria and Julio Lugo to giant contract to play SS, and neither could actually play SS and hit above .250

Traded Kelly SHoppach (.280 12 HR 35 RBI) (boy wouldn't you kill for those numbers from your back-up catcher, hell that is better than our starting catcher), and Andy Marte (who is having a putrid year) for CoCo Crisp who can't suck enough.

Theo has done a horrible job, how can the Red Sox, not have a right handed powere hitter to come off the bench? How in the world can you go into a game, and not even have a player on your bench to pitch hit for CoCo?

Signed JD Drew to a ridiculous contract. (.283 19 HR 58 RBI) (see Murphy's numbers above)

Any of these moves would have crippled a small market team, Theo is lucky he can buy his way out of these.

Think about it, it now looks like Ortiz is going to be out again, so the only question that remains for these Sox is to see of they can hold off Toronto and Baltimore for 3rd place.

The Sox would be better off right now, if Theo had not traded for CoCo, signed JD, traded Manny, signed Lugo (I can only hope that he does not see the field again when he gets back, Lowrie has more than showed that he is much better than Lugo).

Theo's only saving grace is hsi draft picks which have been outstanding, HOWEVER, he just gave two of them away to "get rid" of Manny.

The Sox are done this year, and now the team needs to be pretty much "blown up" because it has no power.

 

[scout]

Yea! Ortiz may have re-injured that wrist, damn you Theo.

 

[Foley]

Theo's only saving grace is hsi draft picks which have been outstanding

And his playing of the FA market, in being able to get Beckett and Ortiz to sign long term deals before the market exploded. He has known when to get rid of a player a year early, like with Pedro, Nomar or Mueller, and very few times has he let someone go who you wished he held onto (Lowe and Cabrera people will mention, but I'd rather have Ellsbury, Lowrie and Bowden who they got back for compensation). Certainly there are exceptions to both statements, but on a whole both ring true.

And he actually has done a great job of picks outside of the first round. Papelbon was a 4th rounder, Youkilis an 8th rounder, Lester, Pedroia and Masterson were all 2nd rounders. Its not just the high picks he gets back on compensation that he has done well with.

Yes, he has made mistakes. Who hasn't? Has there been a single GM in baseball who has a spotless track record? Theo has made a few egregious trades/signings/moves (Gagne, Lugo, Mirabelli), but again, every GM who has been in baseball as long as Theo has made their fair share of mistakes. Even the consensus best GMs in baseball have made at bunch of terrible moves. Schierholtz has. Beane has. Dombrowski has. Shapiro has. Making bad moves comes with the territory of being an MLB GM.

 

[FreeTedWilliams]

And his playing of the FA market, in being able to get Beckett and Ortiz to sign long term deals before the market exploded. He has known when to get rid of a player a year early, like with Pedro, Nomar or Mueller, and very few times has he let someone go who you wished he held onto (Lowe and Cabrera people will mention, but I'd rather have Ellsbury, Lowrie and Bowden who they got back for compensation). Certainly there are exceptions to both statements, but on a whole both ring true.

And he actually has done a great job of picks outside of the first round. Papelbon was a 4th rounder, Youkilis an 8th rounder, Lester, Pedroia and Masterson were all 2nd rounders. Its not just the high picks he gets back on compensation that he has done well with.

Yes, he has made mistakes. Who hasn't? Has there been a single GM in baseball who has a spotless track record? Theo has made a few egregious trades/signings/moves (Gagne, Lugo, Mirabelli), but again, every GM who has been in baseball as long as Theo has made their fair share of mistakes. Even the consensus best GMs in baseball have made at bunch of terrible moves. Schierholtz has. Beane has. Dombrowski has. Shapiro has. Making bad moves comes with the territory of being an MLB GM.

He signed Beckett, however he was in the Guerilla suit, when that trade was made.

What really stinks about the Manny trade, is that they could have just sent him home (they are paying him anyways, and KEPT Hansen and Moss, and still got two more sandwich picks (the ones you are talking about) next year.

Jason Bay is not going to help the Sox win anything, they are DONE.

 

[Foley]

He signed Beckett, however he was in the Guerilla suit, when that trade was made.

What really stinks about the Manny trade, is that they could have just sent him home (they are paying him anyways, and KEPT Hansen and Moss, and still got two more sandwich picks (the ones you are talking about) next year.

Jason Bay is not going to help the Sox win anything, they are DONE.

Actually, Theo was on the phones advising Ben/Jed/Shipley/Woodfork/etc on that trade. He wasn't just on vacation doing nothing. Despite not having an official title he was still an important part of the FO. And regardless, most of those guys Theo signed. Even if you don't want to give him credit for the trade, the credit goes to guys that he brought into the organization.

What is a better situation to be in going into the offseason: 1) No Manny, the need to spend most of their resources on a new LF, but knowing that you have 2 compensation picks? or 2) No Manny, Bay in LF, the ability to spend most of your resources elsewhere, but two fewer compensation picks? Yes, compensation picks are a huge part of why he has had such great drafts, but having Bay and no compensation picks are better than compensation picks and spending $100+M on Pat Burrell or Adam Dunn. Hansen and Moss are nice, but it's doubtful either of them would have played an important part on this team.

I'm not going to get into an argument about Manny v Bay (there are already enough of them here) but I think its been established that offensively they have been nearly identical this year, and Bay is moving to a park that is more conducive to his swing. If Ortiz is down again for an extended period of time, neither Bay nor Manny would have made a difference. They only survived June without Ortiz because Drew had the best month of his career.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Listening to Schilling and Theo on WEEI today and one thing seems to be resonating ... the stuff concerning Manny that we know about is like maybe 1% to 5% of the crap he pulled. Scill says him and Manny got into a fight like last year on a day Manny took a day off. They were facing a top pitcher and Manny took the day off to rest. Schill made a comment about Manny being a smart guy ... he knows when to take a day off and Manny and him started fighting... manny is a bully ... that's for sure.