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Was Parcells a good Xs and Os guy?

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by DisgruntledTunaFan, Aug 11, 2007.

  1. DisgruntledTunaFan

    DisgruntledTunaFan In the Starting Line-Up

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    In that Indy/Dallas preseason game, even though Wade Phillips' defensive game plan was VERY vanilla-I nonetheless saw more stunts and blitzes in this game than in Tuna's ENTIRE 4 year stint here.(and for that matter, Dallas' D under Parcells never disguised their blitzes here)

    Just out of curiosity, when Parcells was here in NE, was he ever any good with X's and O's?
     
  2. AzPatsFan

    AzPatsFan Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    Tuna believed in fudamental football.

    I never thought of him as a particuarly an Xs and Os Coach. He had the Billy Martin talent of goading and enaraging his own players to get them to produce to the best of their abilities, if only to show the miserable, ascerbic, SOB. It also meant that he didn't wear well.

    After a few seasons, the players just tuned him out, like Billy Martin in baseball. So he hit the road, before he was pushed, whereas Billy would stick around to get fired. Tuna could start over again elsewhere, and work his schtick, successfully. I also thought he would be able to do a "Martin" in getting hired back and do well with the same team with a hiatus of a year or two; say after every three, four or five years of Coaching, though.

    Tuna was as much about this talent as any Xs and Os ability as a Coach. His other fine ability was to assess talent, and to decide if someone was worth the effort to develop. He generally left Teams in better condition talent wise then he found them. But that did not usually apply to their CAP status.

    Tuna is/was a Motivator-type Coach, IMHO. Like Vince Lombardi.

    I would never put him in the category of a innovator/genius like Paul Brown, Bill Walsh or Bill Belichik at all. I never know how to categorize a guy like Don Shula.
     
  3. JoeSixPat

    JoeSixPat Veteran Starter w/Big Long Term Deal

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    My take: Parcells was a motivator... and a good one.... and as gruff as he seemed he understood how different people needed different motivation, taking a different approach with Drew Bledsoe than he did with Terry Glenn for example

    But he was not the best X's & O's guy - and he knew it...

    That's why he was generally smart enough to surround himself with guys who were... primarilly Belichick

    Unfortunately, those guys wound up getting snatched up by other teams, and as his career went on, Parcells had a tough time finding the best X's and O's guys to compliment his motivational techniques as a head coach.

    So basically I'm saying I don't have a high opinion of his coordinators with Dallas, and I think it showed.
     
  4. patsox23

    patsox23 Experienced Starter w/First Big Contract

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    *Parcells was a PHENOMENAL X's and O's guy.





    *When BB was his DC.
     
  5. dhamz

    dhamz In the Starting Line-Up

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    His lack of X and O skills has been really overplayed to the point people seem to question if he was a motivational speaker and not a football guy. He's no BB, Walsh, Shannahan, etc. but he wasn't Art Shell.

    Parcells incredible motivational skills make it fashionable to think that is all he was. It's not true.

    On the flip side, the incredible X and O skills of Walsh and BB make it fashionable to say they are mad sceintists who just won by outsmarting everyone. Both guys know how to use motivational tactics to prepare their team.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2007
  6. rabthepat

    rabthepat 2nd Team Getting Their First Start

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    I always thought of Parcells as a guy who could put an organization together to play solid fundamental football. Nothing flashy but always competitive.
     
  7. fgssand

    fgssand PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    #17 Jersey

    There is no doubt he could find whatever it took to motivate a player and team and turn them into winners.

    He was really good at that and as such certainly has to be considered one of the great ones.
     
  8. PatsFanInVa

    PatsFanInVa PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Dichotomies are never 100% true, but what's been said here is pretty much the "book" on Parcells and Belichick - BB was the Xs and Os "boy genius," as Parcells called him (sarcastically.) BB also got his start breaking down tape/film, and he excelled at it.

    Parcells was not known for Xs and Os creativity. He was much better at stomping around and shouting, leading Parcells to once tell BB, on an open headset channel (i.e., the whole coaching staff heard it,) "That's why you'll never be a head coach."

    It's right up there with "Tonight, a dynasty is born," in the hall of fame of football quotes.

    PFnV
     
  9. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    Parcells was named defensive co-ordinator for the Giants right out of college before he became head coach.

    Obviously he was considered to have skills in that area, more than coaches with more experience (obviously).

    Parcells also used the 3-4 defense at Texas Tech way before he was named DC of the Giants. He was DC and Romeo was an assistant coach.

    The idea that two of the greatest coaches in NFL history are one dimensional androids is absurd. Ray Perkins didn't hire a dumbell as DC right out of college. He must have been exceptional.

    Parcells obviously had a great eye for talent in coaches and players and was a great motivator and delegater. 4 or 5 great coaches working together is better than one.

    Belichick was a film nerd drudge with a tremendous dedication and intellect.

    His motivational skills and player judgements were questionable, but he's improved to the extent that players consider him a major motivator today.
     
  10. Seven Nation Army

    Seven Nation Army Practice Squad Player

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    PFnV, the quote is as follows:

    "Yeah, you're a genius, everyone knows it, a goddamn genius, but that's why you failed as a head coach -- that's why you'll never be a head coach...some genius." According to Halberstam it was said over an open channel during a game.

    What are you talking about? Parcells worked as a college coach for 15 years before making it to the Giants in 1979. He was around age 40, not "right out of college" as you put it.

    My thoughts on the topic. Belichick was offered a job in 1980 by the Vikings where his friend Floyd Reese was already coaching. Belichick turned the offer down because he liked the east coast and the staff. If he had taken the job and left New York there would have been no Super Bowls for the Giants during the following decade. The defense would never have improved to championship caliber without Belichick. Parcells would have been fired within a few years by George Young (who wanted to bring in his friend Howard Schnellberger from Miami) and become a coordinator somewhere else or a college head coach. Today he would be a footnote in history, some guy who wasn't bad but didn't really win much either.
     
  11. TripleOption

    TripleOption Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    It wouldn't be too much of a stretch to theorize that Parcells X's and O's skill was much better in his early days. The league evolves, and he may have gotten so into the HC/motivator aspect of it that he just didn't keep up with the times.

    Look at Joe Gibbs, he is a HOF Coach, and created the "H Back" position , an innovation still used today. He seems to be in over his head these days...
     
  12. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    Oh dear. I didn't make it obvious enough.

    Parcells was a coach, DC and head coach in college.

    He was hired right out of his college coaching career as a defensive coordinator rather than as a position coach with the Giants.

    Is that clearer?

    I'll admit i was going on the Wiki article which said he was offered the DC job in '79.

    The other article says he was offered the LB coaches job and turned that down due to his family. Perkins wanted him so bad as the DC he lobbied the owner.

    Either way, he doesn't sound like some dummy who doesn't know X+0's does he?

    New York Giants
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Parcells

    In 1979, Parcells joined the New York Giants as the defensive coordinator under Ray Perkins. In 1980, he left to join the New England Patriots as the linebackers coach under Ron Erhardt for one year before returning to the Giants as defensive coordinator and linebackers coach.

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/news/2002/01/19/parcells_career_ap/

    In 1979, the reasons he backed out on the Giants were personal -- Parcells' family wanted to stay in Colorado, where he was head coach at the Air Force Academy.

    But in 1980, he took his first NFL job as an assistant in New England. A year later, he was hired as the Giants' defensive coordinator after Perkins persuaded general manager George Young to break a personal rule. "I never hire a man who quits on me," Young always said.
     
  13. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    Of course. Bill Gates used to be a great programmer too.

    You can be sure that BB delegates a lot more than he used to also. Micromanaging was a weak point at Cleveland. People quote that Parcells, "why you'll never be a great coach" line and probably totally misinterpret it IMO.

    Parcells was using his sarcasm to point out flaws in BB's approach, knowing he had head coaching aspirations. It doesn't really make sense otherwise, does it?

    Why would he want to piss off his best coach for no reason?

    Even BB admits he was trying to imitate Parcells gruff persona as coach of the Browns, because this was his chief model of NFL coach behavior.

    Not a good choice for his personality, but you live and learn.
     
  14. TripleOption

    TripleOption Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job

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    I also recall another quote by BP to BB during a game, something to the effect of "The next time you call that blitz, you'll be calling it from the parking lot...genius"

    Again, over an open mic line. It sounds to me like BP was very threatened by BB and like to take him down a peg whenever he got a chance.
     
  15. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    I think Kirwan is the best, most knowledgeable writer out there. When he does an article on the 3-4 defense he talks to Parcells and mentions him quite a bit.

    Read it if you want. Or don't. I'm not even going to excerpt it because arguing against people who think Parcells is just some lucky doofus is silly and not worth the time.

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/8295677
     
  16. reflexblue

    reflexblue PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    I'm in the camp that says Parcell's was a master motivator,that knew what made a particular player tick. He knew what to say,and when to say it.ex. calling Terry Glenn "she" questioning his toughness.Only Parcells was able to get anything out of Glenn.
    I think Parcells was also very good at picking out talented assistant coaches,and wasn't afraid to hire someone that could evetually vie for his job as HC. I think the proof of this is old,and has been said in this thread already. Being a motivator can only get you so far,and Parcells except for one time with the Jets (AFC Cham. game) never went far into the playoffs without Belichick. I think Belichick is an x's and o's guy who learned how to motivate,and deligate. I think someone similar to Parcells was Bill Cowher who was another Rah, Rah, guy,a motivator who happened to be around long enough with a great front office finding him talent. That SB win wasn't exactly a thing of beauty,and argument could be made that they shouldn't have won.I don't think of Cowher as an x's and o's kind of guy.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2007
  17. RayClay

    RayClay Pro Bowl Player

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    Of course, I could be wrong, but I don't see it that way.

    When I see my best friend he calls me a dumbell Ahole etc. He just expects more of me. Other people might think I'm so smart, but he cuts me down a peg.

    I really don't respect many people's opinions, but i do his and I argue with him and challenge him because I know I'll hear the unpleasant truth and be forced to back up my arguments.

    I see Parcells challenging the "genius" sarcastically and BB "showing" him and improving much more than he would with a wishy washy coach.

    I just think it's a way men who excel in business or whatever challenge each other by put downs.

    They're actually similar in that respect. they throw around compliments like man hole covers, so when you get one, it means something.

    Was Parcells threatened? In a way. I don't think either one shied away from competition or making somebody eat his words.

    Funny how a tough boss or teacher makes you find more strength than you thought you had.
     

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