Unbelievable. An article on Houston Antwine

[italian pat patriot]

great job Ray Clay

and this one is a great thread

personally i agree with you on Billy Sullivan and i was very happy when he was introduced in the Hall

pity and sad he never won a Super Bowl (1976 year comes to mind to me too often when we discuss those matters; that team was great and talented)

 

[RayClay]

Thanks for all the info Ray, it certainly illuminates the situation as it happened....but I guess we will choose to interpret the information from different sides of the fence, It was a long time ago and I my memories aren't as clear as I would like, but I recall my attitudes being formed from conversations I overheard because either a relative or a friend of a relative was one of the stockholders that felt they were being screwed by the settlement Sullivan was offering.

I also have a slight insight into how the Pats were run in '60-'70 because of the time I played for the Quincy Giants, which was affiliated with the Patriots organization. You'd here things from guys they sent down to us, or coach/scouts who also worked with us. They were'nt always complimentary.

Clearly the BoD's trying to get rid of Sullivan were keenly aware that as well meaning as he seemed, he didn't know what he was doing running the team and what happened in the future just bore that out.

I know he gets credit for building the Foxboro Stadium, et al, but you have to wonder that had we had a competent ownership group from the start that a better stadium alternative would have been sorted out and the team might STILL be the Boston Patriots. Sullivan HAD to build in Foxboro because that was the only deal HE could get done...that doesn't neccessarily mean that that was the ONLY deal out there....just the only one HE could pull off.

For all the trouble Bob Kraft had to go through when he got the club, it "only" took him about 8 years to get a stadium deal finalized and it would have been a lot sooner if Bill Weld was more than just a pretty face as Governor at the time....but that's another sad story.

Well Mr. Kraft married into a thriving business in an era where a good businessman could become a billionaire, which he did. I'm sure you spent plenty of time in the rat infested toilet called the Boston Garden which, despite being home to two dramatically successful franchises in the 60's and 70's wouldn't be replaced until 1995! And that's just a basketball arena that already had land in the heart of Boston.

Apples to apples Ken. A wise businessman would never invest in an expansion football league knowing the political and geographical situation in Boston. There was no "ideal" situation, which is why he was laughed at and called crazy.

Sullivan's Patriots were a bush league organization in many ways, but i always found them entertaining. We had some good executives in Holovak and Bucko Kilroy and brushed with greatness in the Hannah, Fairbanks and Berry eras, though they ended in farce. We had some spectacular busts and years when we couldn't afford the top picks, but generally always had good talent at the line and other less glamorous positions, as opposed to teams with a lot of money and no football sense.

I still maintain, had he not been crazy enough to pursue it, we might never have had a team here. Go into the nineties with no new expansion league and no land and zoning and precedent for a stadium. There would have been no team for Kraft to buy.

By the way, I'm not saying the business side was well managed. Far from it. It was like a thirty year three stooges sketch with the Sullivans trying to run a football team one step ahead of the cops and the banks. The final nail in the coffin was a thrilla...

Continued...

 

[RayClay]

The Sullivan's were terrible businessmen. Thank gawd there were no such instruments as CDO's or credit default swaps back then, or Chuck Sullivan might have collapsed the entire economy by himself. They began to swim in debt even as they had one of the highest payrolls in the league...

I

n 1981 the Sullivans moved to get sole ownership of Schaefer Stadium. Once again Chuck, using his father's assets, led the attack, offering to buy out the shareholders for $12 a share. They jumped at his offer because, as one former business associate of the Sullivans says, "The price was way above what anybody else would've paid. The Sullivans always paid too much."

During the players' strike in '82, Chuck strengthened the league's ability to withstand a long walkout by negotiating a $150 million line of credit from Crocker Bank that the owners could use as a strike fund.

Chuck seemed to get carried away by power. "The team and the league had become terribly important to him," says Camille Sarrouf, a lawyer and former Patriots shareholder who successfully sued the Sullivans. "He once said to me, 'There are 100 U.S. senators but only 28 owners of an NFL team.' "

But even as Chuck ascended in the NFL hierarchy, his family's decline was beginning. The 1982 strike sapped the team owners of revenues. The Sullivans were hurting more than most because they were still paying off the debts they had assumed when they took over the Patriots. Interest rates soared in the late 1970s and early '80s, when the Sullivans had done most of their borrowing, and the Sullivans were paying several million dollars a year just to service those loans. Then Chuck came up with a plan that would not only clear the books but also give his father and his family lifelong financial security: In 1984 he decided to promote a 15-city international music tour—the famous Victory Tour—featuring Michael Jackson.

This time, however, Chuck was in over his head. He eventually signed a deal that guaranteed Jackson $41 million, and he had to borrow much of that money. Once again he put up Sullivan Stadium as collateral by taking out another mortgage.

Chuck gave Jackson too much. He had guaranteed 75% of gross revenues from anticipated ticket sales. For various reasons—for example, because of lack of familiarity with stage construction and design, the promoters overestimated the number of tickets that could be sold in many of the stadiums—receipts fell far short of estimates. Chuck also had to cover most of the Jackson entourage's considerable expenses. Chuck employed 120 people for the tour and provided Jackson and his large troupe with everything from their favorite foods and beverages to two 175-ton stages that had to be assembled and taken down at every stop. Total overhead expenses ran about $1 million a week, which was far more than expected.

Midway through the tour, Chuck started asking Jackson for help. Jackson agreed to lower his take of the ticket-sale gross, but Chuck still couldn't cover his expenses. He made one final stab at financial redemption by paying $18 million for certain licensing rights to Jackson clothing, which would allow him to cash in on souvenir T-shirts and the like. As luck would have it, Jackson went into seclusion for almost three years right after the tour, dampening the demand for Jackson memorabilia. Physically and financially drained, Chuck suffered a mild heart attack. The venture cost him at least $20 million.

Business at the ballpark was also turning sour. Even though the Patriots were selling out most of their home games, they were losing money. They had one of the highest payrolls in the league. The luxury boxes were not selling well. The town of Foxboro restricted the number of concerts and other events that could be held at the stadium. No one could make a privately owned stadium pay with only 10 professional football dates a year...

In the summer of 1985, Billy asked Goldman Sachs, the Wall Street investment banking firm, to help him sell his holdings. But a funny thing happened: New England ended up in the Super Bowl for the first time, and Billy began telling people that he was having too much fun to give up his team.

How Billy Sullivan and his son Chuck turned a $25,000 - 03.14.88 - SI Vault

 

[Pats726]

Well, let me straighten that out. The AFL was an expansion league the 8th franchise was supposed to go to Philadelphia. Sullivan scooped it up at the last minute, despite the fact no one wanted to even try to get a stadium done here.
[World League, XFL there are no guarantees with these things]Nobody in the NFL or AFL wanted to give us a team because of the Stadium issue.
.

Expansion or alternative league?? I think more the latter..as they wanted something quite innovative to the sameness of the NFL. The league was more offensive minded...with QBs throwing the ball a great deal. (Not at all as much as today..but more so than the older stodgy NFL..where the real arm was Unitas..who was the expception not the norm.) The AFL brought a few things to the NFL...a live clock on the field (the NFL had refs keep the time..so the clock was always unofficial), the two point conversion (which was used a lot in college, but not in the NFL) as well as player's names on the back of the jersey. There was an all out war between the leagues as far as bidding on players coming out of college and while many went to the NFL, there were exceptions.
For a team in Boston, it was a total breath of fresh air as for the past decade Chris Schenkel and the New York Football Giants were rammed down the throat of all in New England. I hated that team with a passion with all its hype, from Sam Huff to Gifford to many others. SO when the Pats arrived, many were just glad to have footbal again in the city.
Trying to get a stadium done in Boston was never an easy deal..and I believe one could write a book about those efforts...with what I think was counted in another thread at least 25 possible locations. At first a new stadium really wasn't needed...the team was in Braves Field then the next year at Fenway. That ended in 67 when the Sox were successful and Yawkey basically told the team to take a hike.
Getting a stadium in Boston for decades has been more like pulling teeth at its worst...and that goes back to the 50s...impossible!! Too many hands in the till..too political. There were many many ideas...but none got off the ground. I think someone could write an interesting book about all the many stadium ideas from the 50s on and the dynamics and reasons why they all failed. It was a minor miracle the Garden was replaced.
There was a sort of chicken/egg situation with the stadium. No one in Bostonw as going to build a stadium before a team was here and there wa sthought that WITH a team, one might get done. I do think chances improved once the team was in Boston, but the politocal powers had a high price and made it totally impossible to get done.

Sullivan was not a cheapskate. There was never any money to begin with. There was no stadium. Nevertheless, he and Holovak put together a team good enough to go to the championship game by 1963, though they got slaughtered.

Actually in some ways he was.. at least with the players here and there and more early on. Don't Forget the Hannah-Gray situation that happened in the early 70s. I think he learned something from that. No doubt his heart was in teh right place at times..but others?? More a tightwad. Yes, the early 70s teams were good and they did make it to San Diego, which was really great!! If it wasn't for a Namath led Jets victory on a Saturday in December, they may have had a shot at the first SUperbowl. Parilli and the first wave of players got old..Holovak was canned...and then..the down turn.

Look at the late 70's early 80's teams. Fairbanks situation was bad, but that was a great team in coaching and personnel. The 1985-86 team had a top five payroll I believe, definitely one of the highest in the NFL.

Yes..that was another bad one..Fairbanks, but he did learn more about the importance of paying players and changed later in the 70s...80s. Very true that in the 80s some teams did have high payrolls.

In 1959 and even fairly recently, there weren't tons of millionaire's and billionaire's with enough free time to invest in sports teams, regardless of profit. There were a few, like oil tycoon Hunt for KC, but a lot were sports guys and syndicates. Sullivan put together a group and did the leg work.
He was a sports guy from BC. He also owned an oil company. Not oils wells, I'm sure he probably went up to your house and plugged the hose in on occasion. It was a different world back then, believe me. No one wanted this team, no one wanted, or could afford to build a stadium, no one believed they could get political cooperation or funding for one.
The alternative was no team. He tried to get some stadiums done and when the league threatened to leave us without a permanent home, he worked with people to put that tin can up in Foxboro, to keep a team in the area a few more years.Did he make some bad business decisions to try to keep it afloat? Oh yeah.

ALL of that was quite true..It was a rag tag operation back then...and he did all he could to keep the Pats here. Having been kicked out of Fenway, then BC..it was his last year in Boston...Harvard Stadium in Cambridge. With the merger, the NFL demanded a larger stadium...and after banging his haed against the walls with so many dead end paths, he got in done in Foxboro. If I remember..it was done fast there..less than a year..which was a miracle to do it so quickly. It was a poor stadium..worse than many of college teams, but it did keep the team here in the area. For that alone..a LOT of praise has to be given to him.

Could he have sold out for a good profit in later years? Sure.
But he wouldn't. Maybe that was a fault, but he loved football and the team and he plowed whatever he had back into it, I don't think there's anyone who thinks he made a bundle.
Sure he never had much of an original investment, but i think investing the better part of you life is worth something.

Very true..he loved the game..and that was why he never sold the team...He had faults, made mistakes, but still, the team is still here tanks to him.

 

[RayClay]

Expansion or alternative league??

It's the wrong word. I'm thinking of a word besides rival, start up or alternative, but don't know what it is. maybe there isn't one...
The AFL was a great, exciting league, as you said. Wide open football and the two point conversion kicked the stodgy NFL in the pants.

Don't Forget the Hannah-Gray situation that happened in the early 70s. I think he learned something from that. No doubt his heart was in teh right place at times..but others?? More a tightwad.

I guess I'm splitting hairs on the tightwad part. I just meant he was usually spending more than he had, even though it wasn't enough to run a class operation. He always managed to keep a (usually) respectable team on the field, but it was the epitome of the word "bush league".

Though I think he handled negotiations awkwardly (and Chuck was worse), even when he had the dough, I have to defend the basic approach regarding Hannah and Gray. They negotiated as a tandem. That's a hell of a lot to tie up in an offensive tackle and guard. Hannah was all world, but did he need another highly paid player beside him, given there was a whole other team to pay? Brian Holloway played in three pro bowls lining up next to him.

They deserved all the criticism for the tacky way they handled negotiations, but i wouldn't expect Belichick to drop that much money into one side of the line by a longshot.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Pats726]

This is a great thread.. with lots of ups an downs as far as the Patriots went.. it's a REAL SHAME..that no one has written a book about the Patriots...pre-Kraft. There is a book that would be incredibly interesting in so many ways..and yet..no one has written it. The late Will McDonough had wanted to write one but kept putting it off....and never lived to finish that. There are some around who know a lot Hobson...Cappeletti and others but no one has come to the fore...and there have been only snippets as in Felger, Donaldson's and others. SUCH a pity as the history is rich and entertaining on many levels. Tragic and funny and yet at times with real success stories. I really hope someone or a group of people decide it is worthy. I certainly think it would be great..and I think others would like to read about how it was and how it changed.
The worst period of 5 years was 89-93 with 19 wins 61 losses with 68-72 with 19 wins and 51 losses and 67-71 with 19 wins, 50 losses and a tie close behind. The worst period was 67-75 with only one team at .500 (74) and all others under...which really says that this franchise has had ups and downs an not a real sustained down period as have other franchises.
I tend to think Hunt and Davis were mentioned a lot connected with the AFL because they had two winning franchises during the early days of the merger. Sullivan just gets overlooked.

 

[Pats726]

I guess I'm splitting hairs on the tightwad part. I just meant he was usually spending more than he had, even though it wasn't enough to run a class operation. He always managed to keep a (usually) respectable team on the field, but it was the epitome of the word "bush league".

Though I think he handled negotiations awkwardly (and Chuck was worse), even when he had the dough, I have to defend the basic approach regarding Hannah and Gray. They negotiated as a tandem. That's a hell of a lot to tie up in an offensive tackle and guard. Hannah was all world, but did he need another highly paid player beside him, given there was a whole other team to pay? Brian Holloway played in three pro bowls lining up next to him.

They deserved all the criticism for the tacky way they handled negotiations, but i wouldn't expect Belichick to drop that much money into one side of the line by a longshot.

As I think all have said that grew up through the old teams..there were ups and downs and really not consistent management..and the way players were treated.
And it was hard..and it was also a different world without free agency as it is now and no cap. That is all true about having a whole team to pay..but it didn't at all help with his image or the way players felt about him. I also thing there was a reneged romise that made teh situation worse. As far as Holloway went, he might have been All pro..but I think he wouldn't have come close if he did not have Hannah besides him. He wasn't all that great, at least in what I saw of him.
There was a situation with Rucci and Lane who got big deals...out of whack, but that was Grier and the start of the salary cap..again different era.
I didn't think he did the right thing with Hannah/Gray...but a few years later with Haynes, that was a lot different. With Slusher, who was his agent at teh time, it was more out for the mega bucks and there was no way to give in to that...Again..more in the rise of free agency and big contracts. There was also the trade of Plunkett for how many big picks and a backup QB??? One of the best trades ever in Patriot history.

 

[RayClay]

This is a great thread.. with lots of ups an downs as far as the Patriots went.. it's a REAL SHAME..that no one has written a book about the Patriots...pre-Kraft. There is a book that would be incredibly interesting in so many ways..and yet..no one has written it. The late Will McDonough had wanted to write one but kept putting it off....and never lived to finish that. There are some around who know a lot Hobson

McDonough's book would have been great. One thing though, he and sullivan hated each others guts. Little Irish jealousy methinks. I'm sure Sullivan let him know he had a team and Will didn't on contentious occasions. Of course Mr. McDonough had some well connected and some fairly unsavory connections (and they were brothers) so I'm not sure if he would have preceded Billy into heaven.

But he hated Sullivan's guts, I guess that's all there is to that.

Hobson would be the perfect one (and the humblest one, at that) Less than nine months ago he was still churning out columns, so I hope they get a typist or a ghost writer out to help him while this great resource and very funny man is still up to the task.

I grew up in Milton, so I had access to a deliverd copy of the Quincy Patriot Ledger every day and always loved hobby. A fairly recent effort follows... The Humble One ...

No injured reserve in prognostication business

Many people have often commented how Tom Brady and the Hunk of Humble Hall are so much alike.

Yes, lovers of chiseled jaws, it’s easy to see the similarities.

Brady is Mister Football on the field and of course the Humble One is Mister Football off the field. He has Gisele fawning all over him while the paparazzi wait to get the twosome in the camera lens.

I don’t how many times I have had to duck those celebrity photographers as I exit Humble Hall with my little Hot Tamale, Ms. Humble, on my arm.

Yes it’s almost uncanny how the signal caller and your beloved penman have followed the same path. It was really scary this week when this man with the rapid-fire typing skills was forced to have knee surgery just like Tommy boy. The “Surgeon to the Stars” repaired a little tear in my well-formed knee.

Needless to say, my little peach fuzz has been waiting on her big buckaroo hand and foot, the same treatment Gisele gives to Tommy.

But there is one big difference between Gisele's hunk and your gridiron gadfly, I am back to work. Yes, I never missed a play when it comes to picking winners for my faithful followers. Despite the fact I am a bit slow getting back and forth to the refrigerator, I am fit for duty when it comes to making this week’s picks.

No injured reserve in prognostication business - Quincy, MA - The Patriot Ledger

 

[Pats726]

McDonough's book would have been great. One thing though, he and sullivan hated each others guts. Little Irish jealousy methinks. I'm sure Sullivan let him know he had a team and Will didn't on contentious occasions. Of course Mr. McDonough had some well connected and some fairly unsavory connections (and they were brothers) so I'm not sure if he would have preceded Billy into heaven.
But he hated Sullivan's guts, I guess that's all there is to that.
Hobson would be the perfect one (and the humblest one, at that) Less than nine months ago he was still churning out columns, so I hope they get a typist or a ghost writer out to help him while this great resource and very funny man is still up to the task.
I grew up in Milton, so I had access to a deliverd copy of the Quincy Patriot Ledger every day and always loved hobby. A fairly recent effort follows... The Humble One ...

I believe..at one point he was all ready to do teh Pats book and another project went to the head of the line...was it Teddy Ball game? I do not remember..but he had talked about this for some time..a book about the Pats..but why the rush?? It's really too bad as it would have been interesting because as one put it, "he knew where the dead bodies were." Of course this is odd as he a close connections with the Bulgers ...Was Billy's first campaign manager. I am not sure why he and Sullivan had that hate going..esepcailly with the B connection..but in retrospect..if they HAD been close a possible stadium might have been closer...NOT done..of course..
I totally agree about Hobson..he is a GREAT resource and really the BEST writer who ever covered the team. I never had access to the Ledger..but what I used to do in the 70s and 80s was stop in at the BPL and take a look at a week's worth of his writings and understand MORE about the Patriots. He always had the scoop and the info on the obscure players during training camp. He was really great!! Later on I would get the Ledger in Cambridge during the late 80s 90s..always getting it a few times a week. He might be one of the few left who knows so much about the 60s Patriots and beyond..
I truly wish a book could be done..before much of it is all lost.

 

[italian pat patriot]

how many books there are about our full history ?
from day 1 ?

 

[Pats726]

how many books there are about our full history ?
from day 1 ?

Really NONE!!!

 

[RayClay]

I'm running into a lot of SI from the vault articles in searches, for some reason. This Dr. Z article is about Ron Meyer's firing.

Apparently he'd burned his bridges with players and the Sullivans, so he fired Rod Rust (not a bad coach, bad head coach though) without mentioning it so he would get fired and they'd have to pay him.

Look at the list of players he wanted traded!! I knew Hannah despised him, but we'll have to take Pat sullivan and Dr. Z's word on the rest.

Unbelievable!

Actually, the Rust incident provided Sullivan with a convenient excuse for resolving a situation that had been building since the off-season, when Meyer tried to get rid of some of the more prominent Patriot veterans. Pat Sullivan overruled him, and Meyer's days were numbered.

According to Sullivan, Meyer wanted to trade tailback Tony Collins and left guard John Hannah, the greatest lineman in the club's history, plus defensive end Julius Adams, free safety Rick Sanford and running backs Robert Weathers and Mosi Tatupu, among others.

"I overruled him," Sullivan says. "He wanted to flush everyone down the toilet and rebuild from the ground up. O.K., maybe when you're a 2-14 club there's some justification for something like that, but I felt we were a darn good team with playoff-caliber material. I didn't want to see everything torn apart." Translation: When you're trying as hard as the Patriots are to sell tickets, you don't unload the top drawing cards.

Shortly before the Oct. 9 trading deadline, Meyer sought to trade long-ball wideout Stanley Morgan, who was coming back from a hamstring pull. He was overruled again, this time by Sullivan and player development director **** Steinberg. A few days before that, Patriot receiver coach Steve Endicott had been quoted in print as saying that Morgan wasn't playing regularly because Stephen Starring and rookie Irving Fryar were better. Sullivan called Endicott, who had been on Meyer's staff at SMU, to his office and bawled him out.

"I told him he was wrong for three reasons," Sullivan said. "First of all, they're not better—he'd see that when Stanley got well. Secondly, the players get upset when they read stuff like that. Morgan's one of the leaders of this team. And thirdly, we're trying to sell tickets here.

A power grab put Ron Meyer out, Raymond Berry in as Pats - 11.05.84 - SI Vault

 

[Pats726]

I'm running into a lot of SI from the vault articles in searches, for some reason. This Dr. Z article is about Ron Meyer's firing.

Apparently he'd burned his bridges with players and the Sullivans, so he fired Rod Rust (not a bad coach, bad head coach though) without mentioning it so he would get fired and they'd have to pay him.

Look at the list of players he wanted traded!! I knew Hannah despised him, but we'll have to take Pat sullivan and Dr. Z's word on the rest.

Unbelievable!



A power grab put Ron Meyer out, Raymond Berry in as Pats - 11.05.84 - SI Vault

A really great find!! Take a look at who Meter wished to get rid of??? He seems to be in teh leagur of Mazur, Rush, McPherson and others who came in and and were clueless. It also shows that Sullivan had at times more sense than some of the coaches that came through here. That fact that the next year with Berry as coach, the team made it to the Superbowl with those players that were supposedly trash, showed how off base Meyer was.
Great find!!!
I really do wish that Hobson or someone of that era put together a real definitive book on this team. There is much history here...the good, the bad and the ugly...