Todd Helton..

[DarrylS]

convince me how this guy, who is 33, will help the RS this year and for the next 5.. and why we should give up Hanson and another high prospect.. the lineup looks old, but reminds me of the ones of old, lots of pop and no stop.

 

[patriotspride]

convince me how this guy, who is 33, will help the RS this year and for the next 5.. and why we should give up Hanson and another high prospect.. the lineup looks old, but reminds me of the ones of old, lots of pop and no stop.

im not going to try and convince you because i dont like the deal unless it envolves clement .i would take a box of rocks for that mental midget .

 

[everlong]

Helton's road OPS is awful. He's a product of Coors field and is clearly on the decline even at Coors.

 

[Cityofchampions33]

Helton's road OPS is awful. He's a product of Coors field and is clearly on the decline even at Coors.

For Lowell, Tavarez and a pospect I'll take him. Plus he should benefit from hitting with Ortiz and ManRam. If he comes here he's going to drive in a lot of runs and give us staility in our bottom half.

 

[patsfan55]

i dont think theyll do the lowell and tavarez
but they might do lowell and delcarmen
and id do that
i know helton is old, but coming to beantown would allow him to not have to do too much
hed be able to hit behind manny and in front of jd drew

take a look at this lineup:

1 lugo
2 coco
3 papi
4 manny
5 helton
6 drew
7 youk
8 tek
9 pedroia

with willy mo comin off the bench
considering thats paired with 1 schill, 2 paps, 3 beckett, 4 daisuke, 5 lester, 6 wake, thats one pretty nice lookin lineup

 

[patriotspride]

i dont think theyll do the lowell and tavarez
but they might do lowell and delcarmen
and id do that
i know helton is old, but coming to beantown would allow him to not have to do too much
hed be able to hit behind manny and in front of jd drew

take a look at this lineup:

1 lugo
2 coco
3 papi
4 manny
5 helton
6 drew
7 youk
8 tek
9 pedroia

with willy mo comin off the bench
considering thats paired with 1 schill, 2 paps, 3 beckett, 4 daisuke, 5 lester, 6 wake, thats one pretty nice lookin lineup

its not worth it if your going to give up hansen or delcaremen .they have a decent lineup without helton .havent we learned from last year .you can never i mean never have enough pitching

 

[Cityofchampions33]

i dont think theyll do the lowell and tavarez
but they might do lowell and delcarmen

Thats what we all thought, but it's funny because that's what's on the table as we speak.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

one good thing about Helton is that plate discipline and the ability to hit line drives don't really go away much as you age. he also brings great defense at 1b, something the Sox seem to like yet can only find in crappy guys (McCarthy, Pena, Doug M-whatever).

the negatives are age, power decline, and that awful contract.

Even if Colorado eats half of the contract there is no way he's worth $9M in 2010 and 2011. He probably won't be worth it in 2009.

Less of a problem with the contract is that the Sox have no 1b in the minors. At least he wouldn't be blocking anyone. Lars Anderson will be 23 when Helton's contract ends and might be ready by then if he pans out.

I'd happily take him for this year and next, but is it worth it to be stuck with him 3 years beyond that? payroll inflexibility sucks.

I can only assume the Sox are interested in this only as a salary dump. As long as Colorado kicks in half and takes Lowell or Clement off of our hands then they'll listen. Once Colorado asks for any real prospect you have to laugh at them. Hansen or Delcarmen? HA! Kason Gabbard? I think we can work something out.

*edit* before you start bashing the Sox for this "deal" remember that this is all coming out of Colorado. Of course they're going to act like they would require prospects. There has been nothing to lead us to believe Theo and Co. have any interest in Helton if it means a good prospect is involved.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

i dont think theyll do the lowell and tavarez
but they might do lowell and delcarmen
and id do that
i know helton is old, but coming to beantown would allow him to not have to do too much
hed be able to hit behind manny and in front of jd drew

take a look at this lineup:

1 lugo
2 coco
3 papi
4 manny
5 helton
6 drew
7 youk
8 tek
9 pedroia

with willy mo comin off the bench
considering thats paired with 1 schill, 2 paps, 3 beckett, 4 daisuke, 5 lester, 6 wake, thats one pretty nice lookin lineup

That lineup is bad in that you have one the the 3 worst hitters of the starters (Coco) at the top of the lineup (you also have Helton and Drew as back-to-back lefties, which isn't good). Youk and Drew both deserve many more bats than Coco, especially Drew.

1 Drew - L
2 Lugo - R
3 Ortiz - L
4 Manny - R
5 Helton - L
6 Youk - R
7 Tek / Coco - S
8 Coco / Tek - S
9 Pedroia - R

Something like that makes much more sense. The problem is that you have so many lefties and you don't really want them back-to-back because then you invite LOOGYs (lefty one out guys) like Mike Myers into the game. So you start with Ortiz/Manny batting 3/4 (because it just works and you don't want to mess with it) and work out from there. Drew and Helton would be 2 lefties you want in your top 5 or 6 so you drop one at 5 and have the other lead off. I guess you could conceivably hit Drew 5th and Helton 7th, moving Youk to #2 behind Lugo but then you're batting a bum like Coco or Tek 6th between Drew and Helton (and I'm not sure if either of them is worse from the right - if so you'd bring in a lefty for 5-6-7).

Of course, this makes the Ortiz/Manny/Drew 3/4/5 disappear but I've never really believed Manny requires protection anyway. Also, Coco could move up if he proves that last year was an aberration (and given the finger injury I'm hoping it was).

Two other little nitpicks and I'm done: why would you want Helton in front of Drew? Drew is better and I want him getting more ABs. Also, don't count on Lester giving the Sox anything this year. The guy underwent chemo. If he gives them anything be happy, but don't plan on it.

 

[milwaukeebeers44]

I'd rather give up Hansen than Delcarmen.

But clearly, this is all just speculationn since TBG is right: this is all out of Colorado. But apparently, Helton's also said that he'd approve a trade to the Braves, as well, and word out of Atlanta is that they are trying to put something together (I heard that on the morning news this AM).

 

[chunkypony]

one good thing about Helton is that plate discipline and the ability to hit line drives don't really go away much as you age. he also brings great defense at 1b, something the Sox seem to like yet can only find in crappy guys (McCarthy, Pena, Doug M-whatever).

Although I think Helton is a great defensive 1B, Doug Mientkiewicz was probably the best defensive 1B the Sox have had in the past 10 years. I dont like the idea of us getting Helton.

 

[bakes781]

I'd rather give up Hansen than Delcarmen.

WEEI reported that the Rockies are asking for both prospects in addition to Tavarez & Lowell. I think that's way too much to give up for a guy clearly on the decline.

 

[everlong]

This is Jack Clark, Andre Dawson, Tony Clark.........

 

[milwaukeebeers44]

WEEI reported that the Rockies are asking for both prospects in addition to Tavarez & Lowell. I think that's way too much to give up for a guy clearly on the decline.

I heard that this evening. They're getting a little greedy, asking for two prospects.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

WEEI reported that the Rockies are asking for both prospects in addition to Tavarez & Lowell. I think that's way too much to give up for a guy clearly on the decline.

they can ask for daisuke and paplebon, it doesn't mean they're getting them. if colorado insists on both of them then they are killing any chance of a deal being reached.

maybe they just overvalue him and think that's fair. maybe they want to silent the 'trade Helton' crowd (you can't blame Colorado for the fact the Helton nixed a trade to Anaheim and Boston was trying to rip them off). maybe they're just posturing.

there's no way they actually thinkthe sox will trade them both though

 

[Foley]

I doubt they expect to get both Hansen and Delcarmen, they're just increasing their demands because they were pretty low (on Colorados side) when it involved just one prospect. Keep in mind this is the greatest player ever to come up through the Rockies organization, he is the face of their franchise, and despite the fact hes overpaid and declining he is still tremendously popular. If they had low demands and traded him for peanuts without the illusion of trying to get more for him the fanbase would be furious. But in actuality if Theo told Colorado he'd do Helton +$45M for Tavarez, Lowell and Delcarmen they wouldn't say no.

As far as saying Helton is a product of Coors.... that is completely ludicrous. Playing in a park like Coors obviously helps his stats, but just because he hits half his games in a hitters park (something he'd do anyway if he came to Boston) doesn't mean he sucks everywhere else. I realize that he had a mediocre OPS away from Coors last season, but hes still a career .900OPS hitter away from home.

Look at his split stats for parks. He had an OPS of 1.000 or better in only 4 parks last season: PETCO Park (1.024OPS - 9 games), Angel Stadium (1.100OPS - 3 games), Miller Park (1.135 - 3 games), and RFK Stadium (1.524OPS - 4 games). In terms of Park Factors, each of those was in the lower half of parks that favor the hitter. PETCO was the worst hitters park, AS was the 6th worst hitters park, RFK was the 8th worst hitters park, and Miller was right in the middle at 15th. Small sample size for some of those, but even career he has an OPS north of 1.000 in 3 of those 4 parks. He can hit in a pitchers park no problem.

He also ranked 10th in baseball last season in linedrive%. Linedrive hitters can succeed in a hitters park or a pitchers park.


Edit: But all of this means nothing, since trade talks are dead now:

Rockies managing general partner Charlie Monfort said Monday that the team has withdrawn from talks about trading Helton to the Boston Red Sox.

"It didn’t work out," said Monfort. "When you are taking about a player of Todd Helton’s abilities, you need to get someone back who will be an impact player, and it didn’t work out."

www.rockymountainnews.com

 

[everlong]

Games Home 722 Away 702
Runs Home 639 Away 379
Hits Home 964 Away 736
2B Home 224 Away 189
3B Home 21 Away 8
HR Home 176 Away 110
BB 616 Away 380
SO Home 297 Away 389
Avg Home 371 Away 294
OBP Home 465 Away 393
Slg Home 676 Away 507
OBP Home 1141 Away 900


The numbers so not lie he has clearly been a product of Coors.

Also he's in a three year decline in all his numbers but I'll just list OPS

2004 - 1088
2005 - 979
2006 - 880

And he has 5 years left on his deal.

 

[Foley]

Thats all great but it doesn't prove that hes a product of Coors. It just proves that hes a better hitter in Coors, which would be the exact same if Manny Ramirez, Albert Pujols or anyone else played half their games there. He has always been a phenominal hitter in Coors and a very good one elseware, but that doesn't mean that he is a product of the stadium, it just means that he is using it to make his stats better despite them being very good away.

I didn't like the trade becasue of his contract, the fact he has already showed signs of declining, and hes not a huge need... but I still think he's been a very good hitter even without Coors.

 

[everlong]

A career OPS of 900 outside of coors makes him good but not great player. Manny is over 1000 having never played there. Also Helton's last 3 years out of Coors make him an average player at best.

5 year? Not.

 

[Foley]

Again. I don't like the trade and don't want him in Boston. But the idea that he is a product of his own stadium is idiotic.

A career .900OPS is very good. Not great, not elite, not HOF and I never said otherwise. But a person who can hit that well away is not a product of their home stadium.