The 1972 Dolphins on the 2007 Patriots

[Watson's IQ]

I find it completely ironic that the two most accomplished teams in NFL history is NOT riddled with hall of famers. The Pats have Brady, Seau (mostly from his tenure in SD), Moss IF he continues to have 3 or 4 great seasons like he did this year, Bruschi is a longshot, and Harrison is a VERY longshot. Maybe someone could come out and be a HOFer but so far that's it. The Fins had the no name defense for a reason, no one really knew them. I find it funny that both teams just kept winning. HOF coaching beats HOF players any game of the year. Just my opinion. But trying to compare the 07 Pats to the 72 Fins is like comparing the 06 BoSox to the 27 Yankees.

If you think Moss isn't a shoe-in right now, I don't know what to tell you.

Brady and Seau are no brainers, as you pointed out.

Seymour is not old by any means and well on his way to the HoF if he sustains his level of production. Bruschi's probably a Patriots Hall of Famer, but I doubt the NFL comes calling.

Plus, their HoF coach.

But really, I wouldn't measure the success of an NFL team by its hall of famers, since the ultimate tribute to the Pats of recent vintage is that everyone from 1 to 53 has made some form of contribution, and until this year no stars really stood out statistically.

 

[RIVA Pats Fan]

Down here in Washington, DC this was the topic of conversation a week ago. Bruschi and Brown were brought up (along with Vinatieri) and it was mentioned that there would be a good chance of Bruschi getting in more on intangibles and with the HOF field expanded. They also mentioned Seymour as an eventual solid bet and Ty Law as a possibility.

Of course, someone nobody mentioned was mentioned on that show and it was Robert Kraft for what he did to resurrect the franchise and his eventual influence on football in New England.

If you think Moss isn't a shoe-in right now, I don't know what to tell you.

Brady and Seau are no brainers, as you pointed out.

Seymour is not old by any means and well on his way to the HoF if he sustains his level of production. Bruschi's probably a Patriots Hall of Famer, but I doubt the NFL comes calling.

Plus, their HoF coach.

But really, I wouldn't measure the success of an NFL team by its hall of famers, since the ultimate tribute to the Pats of recent vintage is that everyone from 1 to 53 has made some form of contribution, and until this year no stars really stood out statistically.

 

[FrontSeven]

I may be alone, but I appreciate their candor and honesty. So what if they care about their record?

Shula admitted that what he said came off as self-serving and Morris always sounds like a crackhead. Good enough for me.

Candor is only acceptable when it's in the form of praise.

There's a tremendous hypocrisy in proclaiming the Dolphins to be shumcks for being competitive. They lived in a world of competition, they still live in a world of competition, and they are doing what competitive guys always do.

 

[FrontSeven]

The 72 Dolphins are on the verge of being a lot less relevant than ever before.

That may be true - as true of our current Patriots 10 years from now. There is nothing wrong with not wanting to be less relevant. They are not boy scouts. The did compete at the highest level, and they are still competitive. Apparently that isn't a good thing just because you have retired?

I just think it's hypocritical to laud Brady because he's the type to stuff his sister in cards or dominoes "because he's just such a competitor" and then expect guys like Brady or Morris to suddenly turn it all off when they hit 40.

I actually don't think it's a great trait to want to beat your sister in cards but that's another story. If you do, then fine, but don't expect these guys on any team or from any era to go from being pit bulls to being puppies with big loving eyes who exist only to make you feel good. They got to where they are because of being pit bulls, not puppies.

 

[Watson's IQ]

Down here in Washington, DC this was the topic of conversation a week ago. Bruschi and Brown were brought up (along with Vinatieri) and it was mentioned that there would be a good chance of Bruschi getting in more on intangibles and with the HOF field expanded. They also mentioned Seymour as an eventual solid bet and Ty Law as a possibility.

Of course, someone nobody mentioned was mentioned on that show and it was Robert Kraft for what he did to resurrect the franchise and his eventual influence on football in New England.

Even as a Pats fan, I'm not convinced Bruschi or Brown are HoFers, as much as I love them. Bruschi has long been a solid, above average player, but has never really been an elite linebacker in my mind, at least not in ways that show up on the stat sheet.

As for Sey, if he continues his career track, he's a lock in my mind. Not in yet though.

Ty Law I would think would be a very good bet, and if a kicker is ever going to get in it will be Adam V.

As for Kraft, I consider him and BB to be a given (and maybe even SP when all is said and done)

 

[richpats]

Candor is only acceptable when it's in the form of praise.

There's a tremendous hypocrisy in proclaiming the Dolphins to be shumcks for being competitive. They lived in a world of competition, they still live in a world of competition, and they are doing what competitive guys always do.

The 72 Dolphins need PR guys in the worst way. They make going undefeated all about THEM, like every team tries to emulate the 72 Fins or match their feat. The Pats aren't trying to be like the Fins, they want to win the SB and cap off a perfect season. That's a huge accomplishment, no matter how many have done it before.

That being said, the 2007 Patriots are a heavy dose of karma served to the 72 Fins, who have made a habit of celebrating the downfall of others all these years.

 

[Dojo Chargerfan]

If you think Moss isn't a shoe-in right now, I don't know what to tell you.

Brady and Seau are no brainers, as you pointed out.

Seymour is not old by any means and well on his way to the HoF if he sustains his level of production. Bruschi's probably a Patriots Hall of Famer, but I doubt the NFL comes calling.

Plus, their HoF coach.

But really, I wouldn't measure the success of an NFL team by its hall of famers, since the ultimate tribute to the Pats of recent vintage is that everyone from 1 to 53 has made some form of contribution, and until this year no stars really stood out statistically.

If Moss retired from football TODAY he is not a HOFer. He had 2 great years with Minn, a few pro bowl years and a few average years including a couple with the Raiders. Although he set an NFL mark for TD's this year you could make a valid argument that he's not even the best receiver on his own team. He needs to continue his production and stay out of trouble for the HoF. If Art Monk can't make the hof with his production then Moss is going to have to prey.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I may be alone, but I appreciate their candor and honesty. So what if they care about their record?

Shula admitted that what he said came off as self-serving and Morris always sounds like a crackhead. Good enough for me.

I agree, but Morris tried to deny they are "desperate" to retain sole ownership of the record.

He more so than others has fully come across as desperate - this has been a meal ticket for him for so long - and judging by his comments protesting otherwise, he KNOWS that a 19-0 Patriots team will ecliplse the accomplishment of a 17-0 Dolphins team of a non-parity non-salary cap era.

He admits we're in the neighborhood - in one two hour span on Sunday the Patriots might pull in the Dolphins driveway, raze the house, leave it in rubble and move on to a much more upscale neighborhood.

He desparately tries to characterize the Patriots as the 2nd team to have a perfect season, when in fact they'd be the ONLY team to ever go 19-0, and the only Perfect Team of the Modern Era.

Morris and his compatriots might as well have been wearing leather helmets - the NFL then is nothing like the NFL of today, even beyond the two additional wins the Patriots would have.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Oh Moss will prey, most likely on the Chargers, if he gets another shot

As for the Miami homer who says that given the current sports medicine, etc, the '72 Dolphins are a different team, nahhhh. They're giving up 50 pounds per person at some positions. Sports nutrition ain't gonna help you there. Speed's another example. Those were the best guys out there playing the game at the time, sure, but the game has changed, and who gets an opportunity to play has changed. It's not all nutrition, medical help, and different training regimes.

But in broad brush strokes, yeah, different eras, different benchmarks.

As to the comment on parity, and every team having great QBs in 1972?

Let's see... I remember these guys from the '72 world. I'll bold the ones I suspect are greats without thinking about it. Argue these selections at will, they're off the cuff, and un-researched. Just trying to separate "you've heard his name" from "you've heard his name for a reason." Someone else can argue stats on the others:

Roman Gabriel, Rams
Norm Snead, Vikes (though I don't remember why, and he was an 11-year vet and part-timer)
John Brodie, 49ers
Fran Tarkenton, Gintz
Sunny Jorgensen/Billy Kilmer, Redskins
Craig Morton/Roger Staubach, Cowboys
Archie Manning, Saints
Len Dawson, Chiefs
John Unitas, Colts
Daryle Lamonica, Raiders
Joe Namath, Jets
Bob Griese, Dolphins
Dan Pastorini, Oilers
Terry Bradshaw, Stillers
Jim Plunkett, Patriots
Ken Anderson, Bengals

There sure are a lot of other names I might bold if I knew I had a statistical argument but alas, I am tired. Tarkenton, for example, comes up a lot as an early examplar of the scrambling QB... but what are his numbers like? Archie Manning... how does he rate?

Anyway, this is an interesting as hell page:
http://www.mmbolding.com/BSR/pq72index.htm

Somebody just made a website of a scouts guide in 1972. Sort of fleshes things out. They talk about Manning being a "big" QB (6'3" and 204lb.)... and you see them talking about Plunkett vs. Manning, and who was expected to make a bigger splash. In other words, it's 1972 as it happened, not a retrospective.

PS, this guide seems to have made one mistake: they still have Earl Morrall in a timeshare with Johnny Unitas.

As to the future slam dunk Greats from the present day teams? I would say:

Brady
Peyton Manning
Brett Favrevah
Kurt Warner

"Maybe" category:

McNabb
The remains of Steve McNair
The remains of Vinny Testaverde
Carson Palmer
Tony Romo
Rothlisburger
Rivers
Eli Manning
Any of the younger QBs such as V. Young, for that matter Brady Quinn. We just don't know yet. Derek Anderson might actually be for real, if he can stick with Braylon Edwards.

All that to say: I'd expect much more of a concentration of talent in 1 or 2 teams "back in the day", but even the also-rans seem like a fairly impressive list. Of course, we're remembering the guys from '72 in the context of their whole careers. We don't know the whole career of a lot of these guys. I didn't do the research to check the actual stats in '72 of the guys listed who I remember. Just interesting stuff to see that old lineup, and wonder in terms of whether they actually did field a decent QB on more teams back then.

PFnV