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Seven Patriots among 2013 NFL Hall Of Fame Nominees

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by Big-T, Sep 27, 2012.

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  1. Big-T

    Big-T Rookie

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    #51 Jersey

    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  2. PATRIOTSFANINPA

    PATRIOTSFANINPA Rookie

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    Fred Smerlas as well
  3. Big-T

    Big-T Rookie

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    Oh yeah! Shall add him to the OP, control + f failed me there :p
  4. Alfred

    Alfred Banned

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    My bet would be on Parcells. Kraft in 2014.
  5. Avenger

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    #11 Jersey

    I want to see Bledsoe get in
  6. BennyBledsoe

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    #11 Jersey

    Some love for Drew would be awesome.

    Not likely but awesome.
  7. signbabybrady

    signbabybrady Rookie

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    #24 Jersey

    DREWWWWW!!!! :youtheman: but it could be a while.
  8. RayClay

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    #75 Jersey

    Washington and Stanley Morgan standout to me.
  9. IllegalContact

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    Bob Kraft.

    1st ballot

    No question

    He has owned the team since 1994.....they had 5 consecutive losing season before the and have had only 2 since. As owner, he has sold out every home game. Look what he bought and look what he has now.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  10. resdubwhite

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    kind of funny that Parcells hasn't been inducted yet.

    would not be surpised If Kraft is first ballot entrant.
  11. PatsFanSince74

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    I don't think it's surprising (presuming that's what you meant by "funny") that Parcells has been made to wait.

    IMO, Tuna always put himself over the game, a fact that was never more clearly emphasized than by his messy exit from the Patriots around Super Bowl Week in 1997, during which he created a major distraction for the team and became the center of media attention that should have been focused on his players. Parcells was a Drama Queen, making sure the focus was on him whereever he went. I think the writers are reflecting that fact when they make him wait; no one is bigger than the game, no matter how competent.

    And, while he no doubt deserves to be in Canton for his three trips to the SB, his two trophies and his work turning the Giants and Patriots around, there are probably also a few writers who realize that, while his overall record might be 183--138--1, with five Division, three Conference and two League Championships, his record without Bill Belichick as his DC or Assistant Head Coach is 59--72--1 with no Division, Conference or SB titles.

    As for Kraft, I have no idea what the politics of putting an Owner in Canton are, but there must be some, so it might take a few years.
  12. PatsFanSince74

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    I hope you're right and he gets voted in right away. But, I don't know how it works.

    The only other Owners (some had expanded league roles as well) who are members are Charles Bidwell (Cardinals), Al Davis (Raiders), Jim Finks (Vikings), George Halas (Staleys/Bears), Lamar Hunt (Texans/Chiefs), Curly Lambeau (Packers), Tim and Wellington Mara (Giants), Preston Marshall (Braves/Redskins), Dan Reeves (Rams), Art and Dan Rooney (Pirates/Steelers), Ralph Wilson, Jr., (Bills). Tex Schramm is also a member, but as a manager, not an owner.

    Most of those folks were involved with their teams or the league for 30 or 40 years before they were inducted. Kraft's impact on the game has been dramatic in just 18 years, so it will be interesting to see how that gets weighed.

    As I said, I hope you are right.
  13. 1960Pats

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    #75 Jersey

    As much as I admire the way Drew handled being replaced by Brady (he easily could have torn the locker room apart) he just doesn't belong there, imho. I guess it doesn't help that I have Brady's career right in front of me to compare to, but it just seemed like Drew had a couple too many weaknesses for my liking.

    I don't like that Parcells will make it. His record compared to quite a few other multiple title winning HCs is at or near the bottom, but he's still has the two rings. When he gets in it will be because he was smart enough to put the right people under his shadow and pick his spots when he made a move. Being a darling of the mediots probably doesn't hurt him either.

    Kraft doesn't belong. Now, if there was a HOF for owners who helped bring profits up, he'd be a unanimous first ballot inductee. Of course he helped end the strike, but that alone isn't enough (once again imho) to put him into the NFL HOF.

    I don't have enough knowledge of Ted Washington to say if he does or doesn't belong. The most lasting memory I have of him as a Patriot is seeing him have his leg broken on a dirty play during a pileup.

    Coates didn't have enough big seasons during his time.

    Stanley Morgan was the real deal. He would have been a great player to watch in the Polianed version of the NFL. I give him a solid two left thumbs up on HOF worthiness.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  14. MoLewisrocks

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    All players who were voted pro bowlers or all pros appear on the preliminary list in their first year of eligibility. It takes a minimum number of votes to remain there after that.

    As for Kraft, he won't get in for a while. There is a list of 24 "contributors" that includes a Rooney and Bud Adams and Tagliabue plus a list of 18 coaches that includes Parcell's. You don't fall off those lists either until you fail to garner a minimum # of the votes. They won't generally advance more than one off each of those off field lists if that. They elect between 4-7 based on voting % after 2 reductions to 25 and 15. Kraft might make the 25 this year, but I have a feeling Sabol will go in this year from the contributors list. I think the voters debated his Dad's impact too long and came to regret that.

    Enshrinement » Modern-era nominees for Class of 2013
  15. MoLewisrocks

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    Kraft will go in eventually whether you value his contributions or not. He helped turn the league business model into the envy of modern pro sports leagues and fielded a team that went from laughingstock to dynasty winning 3 rings and appearing in 5 Superbowls in just a decade. Then he brokered labor peace, or what passes for it these days, and has played a major role in securing the TV deals that helped fuel it's popularity. He's not a first ballot inductee just because of the list he's on, contributors take a back seat to on field personnel.

    Brady is a first ballot lock and Belichick should be although because he has enemies within the voting group they may make him wait a year. Depends on what he accomplishes between now and then. One more ring and they won't be able to impact his selection. Parcell's was once assumed to be a first ballot lock, but he stayed too long and really exposed himself as less a coaching genius than a talent evaluator and as much on the coaching side as on field. He may make it this year or he may fall just short again depending on how some members views on him have evolved with the perspective of time. But he will get in eventually based on his two rings and the impact of all the branches he sprouted off his coaching tree. Polian is a similar candidate in that what transpired over the last 12 months in Indy may have taken a little of the luster off his candidacy. But he will get in eventually based on his role in Buffalo and in launching Carolina as well as that house of cards he built in Indy that did win one and get to two largely on the basis of Peyton (another first ballot lock).
  16. IllegalContact

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    makes sense.....

    here's my 5:

    jerome bettis
    kevin greene
    art modell
    andre reed
    mike strahan





  17. Patsrock

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    If Parcells gets in, then when Coughlin is eligible he should get in. They have basically identical records and histories.
  18. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Goes to the waited too long theory. Coughlin really puts Parcell's Giants tenure in perspective.
  19. Deus Irae

    Deus Irae PatsFans.com Retired Jersey Club PatsFans.com Supporter

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    While I don't see any of them getting in this year, I wish them all the best of luck.
  20. Avenger

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    #11 Jersey

    Parcells never won a SB without Belichick
  21. PatsFanSince74

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    He has a good case to make. I've provided some data below that suggest his career numbers match up well against those who are already in Canton, but don't scream out "you have to pick me." He joined a team that had won a total of nine games in the prior three years, rode the Parcells wave for a few years and then suffered under three years of the Carroll error and had only one year under Belichick before giving way to Brady, so he will be forgiven for some of his shortfalls, especially in the W/L area.

    If you think about the QB's who will be coming up for consideration in the next few years, Favre will be a slam dunk first rounder. I think that Drew has a stronger case to make statistically than Kurt Warner, who will base his case on multiple SB appearances and his ring. But, winning a championship has never been the deciding factor for the Hall voters. Bottom Line: I don't see how they could put Warner in and keep Bledsoe out.

    If you look at the 17 SB Era HOF QB's (i.e., QB's who played at least one season since 1966), here are their average stats compared to Bledsoe's actuals:


    Years in League: 15.3 (range, low to high, 11-19) DB: 14
    Games Played: 190.2 (131-246) DB: 194
    Win Percent: 0.597 (0.463-0.746) DB: 0.487
    Completions: 2,861.6 (1,685-4,967) DB: 3,839
    Attempts: 4,936.7 (2,958-8,358) DB: 6,717
    Completion Percent: 0.577 (0.501-0.645) DB: 0.572
    Yards: 36,683.8 (22,700-61,361) DB: 44,611
    Yards per Attempt: 7.5 (7.0-8.0) DB: 6.6
    Yards per Completion: 13.0 (11.4-14.7) DB: 11.6
    Touchdowns: 245.9 (152-420) DB: 251
    Interceptions: 191.5 (107-266) DB: 206
    TD % Attempts: 5.1 (3.5-6.4) DB: 3.7
    INT % Attempts: 4.0 (2.6-5.8) DB: 3.1
    TD to INT Ratio: 1.32 (0.79-2.17) DB: 1.22
    Pass Rating: 81.8 (65.5-96.8) DB: 77.1
    Starting and Winning QB for:
    0 League Championships: six (Fouts, Jurgensen, Kelly, Marino, Moon, Tarkenton) (DB)
    1 League Championship: two (Namath, Young)
    2 League Championships: three (Elway, B. Griese, Staubach)
    3 League Championships: two (Aikman, Unitas)
    4 League Championships: three (Bradshaw, Dawson*, Montana)
    5 League Championships: one (Starr)
    (*three from the AFL)
  22. PatsFanSince74

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    Not only that, he never won a Division or Conference Championship without BB as his DC or Assistant HC.
  23. Avenger

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    Great job with the stats, plus I think you have to account for the AFCCG that he won when Brady went down that lead us to the Super Bowl
  24. MoLewisrocks

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    Only if you didn't actually watch the game.

    I think Warner is borderline, but he has two all pros on his resume to Drew's none. He's also 9-4 as a playoff starter compared to Drew's 3-3. Warner had 3 game winning playoff drives. Warner fell apart midway through his career and it cost him statistically. But he led teams to a much better winning%, had a far superior TD/INT ratio and QBR. Plus led teams to 3 and won 1 as a starter. And he really rebounded at the tail end of his career. Something Drew couldn't manage to and in the process led what had been a perennial disappointment in AZ to a SB. Drew could do nothing reunited with parcell's on America's Team, and ended up getting publicly and unceremoniously benched to end his career.

    It's not all about stats, least of all the empty ones. It's a combination of dominance at the position statistically and practically when compared to present day as well as historical peers. And beyond that it's a comparison of talent and proformance vs. deserving nominees at all positions.

    I don't believe Drew remotely gets in while Warner likely eventually will getting a boost from his playoff record and his choice of second career.
  25. PatsWickedPissah

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    Kudos to Pats74 for the stats work.
    However as I see it, I believe that the QB stats from the 1966 years through the 80s are substantively worse than those much better stats we see in the last 20 years of the NFL. It is this era of QB that Drew needs to overmatch and I feel that though he had decent stats, they're just above average to very good at best vs the excellent needed for HOF for his era.

    For those of you who missed watching the AFCCG, against Pittsburgh, Drew finished the drive Brady had taken into Steeler territory for his only TD. He also threw a pass directly at a PITT LB hitting him in the chest in surprise that if caught would have cost us the game. Then there was his thoughtless flip the ball backwards over his head play that luckily no thanks to Drew failed to land near a defender.
    That was FAR from a HOF performance.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  26. PatsDeb

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    Hasn't Parcells fallen out of eligibility a couple of times because he went back to work?
  27. Urgent

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    On Bledsoe:

    At QB on this ballot is Phil Simms, Ron Jaworski and Randall Cunningham, among others. Sorry Drew.

    At WR, the list includes Cris Carter, Andre Reed, Mark Clayton. Morgan is in the conversation.

    18 O-linemen on the list! Big names start with Jonathan Ogden, also Larry Allen.
  28. Deus Irae

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    Bledsoe is a borderline candidate. Warner is a borderline candidate. I could see both get in, and I could see both fail. I'd give Warner the better shot, because the SB win will give his candidacy extra weight.
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2012
  29. brdmaverick

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    I actually find Parcells to be more deserving than Kraft.

    My wish list however is actually for Bledsoe though I highly doubt it will actually happen.
  30. signbabybrady

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    I would think owners and other non-players get in for their contributions to the NFL not neccessarily for owning a winning team. It certainly doesnt hurt but I would think his saving a franchise in a key market and building a city around it, his contributions to the tv deals through his tenure, his help in resolving the lockout, his families philanthrapy, and the countless other things he has done for the game would be much more important to his getting in.

    I think Kraft deserves it and will get it but it could be a few years hopefully not that long.
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