Seven Patriots among 2013 NFL Hall Of Fame Nominees

[Armchair Quarterback]

He has a good case to make. I've provided some data below that suggest his career numbers match up well against those who are already in Canton, but don't scream out "you have to pick me." He joined a team that had won a total of nine games in the prior three years, rode the Parcells wave for a few years and then suffered under three years of the Carroll error and had only one year under Belichick before giving way to Brady, so he will be forgiven for some of his shortfalls, especially in the W/L area.

If you think about the QB's who will be coming up for consideration in the next few years, Favre will be a slam dunk first rounder. I think that Drew has a stronger case to make statistically than Kurt Warner, who will base his case on multiple SB appearances and his ring. But, winning a championship has never been the deciding factor for the Hall voters. Bottom Line: I don't see how they could put Warner in and keep Bledsoe out.

If you look at the 17 SB Era HOF QB's (i.e., QB's who played at least one season since 1966), here are their average stats compared to Bledsoe's actuals:


Years in League: 15.3 (range, low to high, 11-19) DB: 14
Games Played: 190.2 (131-246) DB: 194
Win Percent: 0.597 (0.463-0.746) DB: 0.487
Completions: 2,861.6 (1,685-4,967) DB: 3,839
Attempts: 4,936.7 (2,958-8,358) DB: 6,717
Completion Percent: 0.577 (0.501-0.645) DB: 0.572
Yards: 36,683.8 (22,700-61,361) DB: 44,611
Yards per Attempt: 7.5 (7.0-8.0) DB: 6.6
Yards per Completion: 13.0 (11.4-14.7) DB: 11.6
Touchdowns: 245.9 (152-420) DB: 251
Interceptions: 191.5 (107-266) DB: 206
TD % Attempts: 5.1 (3.5-6.4) DB: 3.7
INT % Attempts: 4.0 (2.6-5.8) DB: 3.1
TD to INT Ratio: 1.32 (0.79-2.17) DB: 1.22
Pass Rating: 81.8 (65.5-96.8) DB: 77.1
Starting and Winning QB for:
0 League Championships: six (Fouts, Jurgensen, Kelly, Marino, Moon, Tarkenton) (DB)
1 League Championship: two (Namath, Young)
2 League Championships: three (Elway, B. Griese, Staubach)
3 League Championships: two (Aikman, Unitas)
4 League Championships: three (Bradshaw, Dawson*, Montana)
5 League Championships: one (Starr)
(*three from the AFL)

Offensive stats exploded in the 90's so I don't think you can accurately compare Bledsoe's to QB's from earlier generations. Throwing the ball a lot doesn't make one HOF worthy. He won as much as he lost. He was 3-3 in games he started in the playoffs.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

While similar arguments based on numbers as to whether Bledsoe or Morgan should get in, I think Morgan's numbers give him a decent case taken in the context of playing before the 90's whereas Bledsoe numbers were more of a product of the times with the explosion of offenses in the 90's.

My take on why Morgan should get in based on numbers that I copied and pasted from a mostly ignored thread that I started.

Yards:

He is currently 29th all time in reception yards. At the end of the year he may get passed by S. Smith, Andre Johnson and Fitzgerald. However at the time of his retirement his 10,716 yards trailed only Steve Largent (13,089), Charlie Joiner (12,146), James Lofton (11,963 at the time) and Don Maynard (11,834).

All four are in the HOF.


Yards Per Catch:

He averaged 19.2 YPC for his career. That is currently 17th all time. Most of the players ahead of him played in the 50's and only for a few years. The only players with a higher YPC and over 7000 yards are Paul Warfield with 8565 yards and 20.1 YPC, Bob Hayes with 7414 yards and 20 YPC and Jimmy Orr with 7914 yards and 19.8 YPC. Warfield and Hayes are in the HOF. For what it's worth, Lance Alworth has 10,266 yards and 18.9 YPC. Morgan has 10,716 yards averaging 19.2 YPC.


Comparisons against his peers:

Morgans career overlapped by at least one year these 11 HOF receivers

64-77 Paul Warfield 8565 Yards 20.1 YPC 85 TD
64-77 Charlie Taylor 9110 Yards 14 YPC 79 TD
65-78 Fred Bilentikoff 8974 Yards 15.2 YPC 76 TD
76-89 Steve Largent 13089 Yards 16 YPC 100 TD
69-86 Charlie Joiner 12146 Yards 16.2 YPC 65 TD
74-83 Lynn Swann 5462 Yards 16.3 51 TD
74-87 John Stallworth 8723 Yards 16.2 63 TD
78-93 James Lofton 14004 Yards 18.3 75 TD
88-99 Michael Irvin 11904 Yards 15.9 YPC 65 TD
80-95 Art Monk 12721 Yards 13.5 68 TD
85-04 Jerry Rice 22895 Yards 14.8 197 TD

Morgan's numbers would rank 6th in total yards 10716, 2nd in YPC at 19.2 and 7th in TDs with 72 among the 11 HOF receivers he played with. His yards would rank 8th among the 28 total receivers in the Hall and his YPC, 4th.


His first six seasons his YPC averages were 21.1, 24.1, 22.8, 22, 23.4 and 20.9.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...minee-pro-football-hof-why-he-should-get.html

 

[VJCPatriot]

Parcells will get in for sure, but I think he goes in as the Giants coach, not as the Pats. That was what he was known for.

Of the Patriots players, I think Stanley Morgan has a real shot. I'm not sure about Bledsoe. He has stats, but his one ring he got, he didn't play in the championship game, although he did come up big in the AFCCG. Hard to say for Drew. I'm also not sure that Coates had a long enough career to make it into the HOF. He was one of the Pats better tight ends, but I dunno.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Offensive stats exploded in the 90's so I don't think you can accurately compare Bledsoe's to QB's from earlier generations. Throwing the ball a lot doesn't make one HOF worthy. He won as much as he lost. He was 3-3 in games he started in the playoffs.

as i said in my post, his stats don't jump out and say "pick me." But he deserves to be in the discussion in a serious way. since championships are not a criterion for HOF QB's (six of the 17 SB era QB's in Canton never won one), his numbers have to be respected. I don't see how they can put Kurt Warner in and leave him out. Also, Donovan McNabb will be eligible in a few years and there will be a lot of noise to put him in, even though his stats are inferior to Drew's and his ability to win championship games doesn't match up to Warner's. You can't put one of those guys in and be fair to the other two, IMO.

Personally, I think the right solution is probably to leave all three of them out, admit Favre in three years and wait for Brady and P. Manning from the same generation to become eligible and eventually sort through the cases for Brees, E. Manning, Rivers, Rodgers and Roethlisberger. and, later, possibly for Flacco and Ryan.

This is a real test, come to think of it, for the selection committee.

What exactly does it mean to be a "Hall of Fame" Quarterback? Brady, Favre and P. Manning are three of the best ever to play the position, with Brady in the debate for GOAT. Putting them in the same category as Bledsoe or Warner or McNabb would devalue Canton's coin, IMO.

 

[Peachhead]

Like RayClay said, Morgan and Washington are the standouts IMO. I don't really like it, but Parcells definitely belongs.

I like Drew. But I don't think he deserves it.

Mr. Kraft definitely deserves it. But perhaps not this year. I'd rather he get in alongside with Troy Brown and Tedy Bruschi. :rocker:

P.S. - What the hell did Fred Smerlas ever do to deserve to be in the same sentence as the HOF?

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

as i said in my post, his stats don't jump out and say "pick me." But he deserves to be in the discussion in a serious way. since championships are not a criterion for HOF QB's (six of the 17 SB era QB's in Canton never won one), his numbers have to be respected. I don't see how they can put Kurt Warner in and leave him out. Also, Donovan McNabb will be eligible in a few years and there will be a lot of noise to put him in, even though his stats are inferior to Drew's and his ability to win championship games doesn't match up to Warner's. You can't put one of those guys in and be fair to the other two, IMO.

Personally, I think the right solution is probably to leave all three of them out, admit Favre in three years and wait for Brady and P. Manning from the same generation to become eligible and eventually sort through the cases for Brees, E. Manning, Rivers, Rodgers and Roethlisberger. and, later, possibly for Flacco and Ryan.

This is a real test, come to think of it, for the selection committee.

What exactly does it mean to be a "Hall of Fame" Quarterback? Brady, Favre and P. Manning are three of the best ever to play the position, with Brady in the debate for GOAT. Putting them in the same category as Bledsoe or Warner or McNabb would devalue Canton's coin, IMO.

His stats may get him discussed but I don't see him ever getting in. I feel the same way about McNabb - not a hall of famer. Like you said the "real test" you just know - Montana, Marino, Elway, Brady, Manning and yes Favre.

IMO, Brees should get in and Rodgers is likely on the way. E. Manning and Rothlisberger would depend how the rest of their careers play out, if either win another it would be tough to keep them out but I don't think either has had a hall of fame type career so far and honestly Rothlisberger would have a better case than Eli up to this point. Rivers - no. Too early for anyone else.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Anyone hoping for someone to make a case for Bledsoe should be relieved that the NE representative for the hall selection committee is still Ron Borges.

I hope that changes soon and replace him with someone who doesn't have such disdain for the team.

 

[Boomer B]

Like RayClay said, Morgan and Washington are the standouts IMO. I don't really like it, but Parcells definitely belongs.

I like Drew. But I don't think he deserves it.

Mr. Kraft definitely deserves it. But perhaps not this year. I'd rather he get in alongside with Troy Brown and Tedy Bruschi. :rocker:

P.S. - What the hell did Fred Smerlas ever do to deserve to be in the same sentence as the HOF?

As much as we love and appreciate what Bruschi and Brown meant to the Patriots, they will never be Hall of Famers

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Like RayClay said, Morgan and Washington are the standouts IMO. I don't really like it, but Parcells definitely belongs.

I like Drew. But I don't think he deserves it.

Mr. Kraft definitely deserves it. But perhaps not this year. I'd rather he get in alongside with Troy Brown and Tedy Bruschi. :rocker:

P.S. - What the hell did Fred Smerlas ever do to deserve to be in the same sentence as the HOF?

Agree Morgan and Washington have legitimate arguments.

I would include Coates as having one too too. He was the best at his position (along with Mushmouth Sharpe who was a glorified WR) for most of his career. 5 time Pro bowl, 2 time All Pro.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

His stats may get him discussed but I don't see him ever getting in. I feel the same way about McNabb - not a hall of famer. Like you said the "real test" you just know - Montana, Marino, Elway, Brady, Manning and yes Favre.

IMO, Brees should get in and Rodgers is likely on the way. E. Manning and Rothlisberger would depend how the rest of their careers play out, if either win another it would be tough to keep them out but I don't think either has had a hall of fame type career so far and honestly Rothlisberger would have a better case than Eli up to this point. Rivers - no. Too early for anyone else.

we see that pretty much 100% down the line the same. What do you think of Warner? IMO, he's a "no" if Bledsoe and McNabb are "no's."

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Parcells will get in for sure, but I think he goes in as the Giants coach, not as the Pats. That was what he was known for.

....

The NFL is unlike the MLB where an inductee has to choose their primary affiliation; as an NFL inductee Parcells can indicate where he feels most strongly affiliated by whom he chooses to present him at the ceremony. Otherwise, he goes in as a "Coach," who happened to coach the Giants, Pats, Jets and Cowboys. There is no helmet, cap or uniform on the bust.

I think every year that goes by makes it harder for Parcells to get in. He antagonized a lot of people in New England by putting himself above the game as he departed, IMO. I also think that the voters aren't blind to the fact that without Belichick as his DC or Assistant Head Coach he never won even a Division and had a losing record.

Personally, I think he deserves to be in for what he did in New England and with the Giants. But, he left a mess when he left the Jets and he did not distinguish himself in any way in Dallas or Miami, so, by hanging around, he made it harder (the favorite saying of my business partner and I is "once we've made the sale, let's get out of the room"). I'm sure the money was good, but he would have been better off following the approach of Cowher and Dungy and sticking to the TV studio.

And, there is a precedent for not admitting an HC with two rings in George Seifert.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

we see that pretty much 100% down the line the same. What do you think of Warner? IMO, he's a "no" if Bledsoe and McNabb are "no's."

I might have to say no on Warner too, although I would put him ahead of Bledsoe and McNabb. He had three great years, 2 good ones and was 13-29 from 02-07. On the plus side for him is he was 2 time MVP. He played well in the playoffs, had an 8-4 playoff record and got to the SB 3 times with two different teams. If he had a more traditional career, or put up better numbers from 02-07 it would be a no brainer. You could make a comparison to Steve Young but Young just had a better career across the board (94-49 record to Warner's 67-49 record, 33124 yards to Warner's 32344 yards and 232-107 TD/INT to Warner's 208/128. Young had 7 solid seasons to close out his career, Warner had five solid seasons - 3 good/great years, than 6 bad/awful years, than 2 good/great again.

Actually McNabb's numbers's match up well against Young's (94-49 W-L, 33124 yards, 232/107 TD/INT to McNabb's 98-62 W-L, 37276 yards, 234/91 TD/INT but different decades and circumstances.

So I'd say Warner no - but the closest out of the three. McNabb would have an argument based only on matching him up to Young. This is why I don't think you can compare QB's of different decades based solely on stats and why Bledsoe's numbers compared to QB's of the 70's or 80's (like Dan Fouts) might match up but would mean little in judging the greatness of a player.

I consider Fouts a legitimate HOF'er but think Bledsoe is nowhere near one. Their stats are near identical but they were playing entirely different games.

Fouts from 1973-1987 was 86-84 W/L 43040 yards 254/242 TD/INT
Bledsoe from 1993-2006 was 98-95 W/L 44611 yards 251/206 TD/INT

It's fairly commonplace for today's QB's to throw for 4000 yards and 30 TD's, doesn't mean they are as good as Marino was.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

And, there is a precedent for not admitting an HC with two rings in George Seifert.

Tom Flores too.

 

[Ring 6]

Drew Bledsoe's chances of making the HOF are exactly ZERO.
If there was a HOF covering only his years in the NFL he wouldn't belong.

 

[Hart Lee Chung]

Robert Kraft not only saved the Pats and made them the standard for an NFL team, but remember he had a huge role in saving football last year.

First Ballot, no question! :rocker:

 

[MoLewisrocks]

as i said in my post, his stats don't jump out and say "pick me." But he deserves to be in the discussion in a serious way. since championships are not a criterion for HOF QB's (six of the 17 SB era QB's in Canton never won one), his numbers have to be respected. I don't see how they can put Kurt Warner in and leave him out. Also, Donovan McNabb will be eligible in a few years and there will be a lot of noise to put him in, even though his stats are inferior to Drew's and his ability to win championship games doesn't match up to Warner's. You can't put one of those guys in and be fair to the other two, IMO.

Personally, I think the right solution is probably to leave all three of them out, admit Favre in three years and wait for Brady and P. Manning from the same generation to become eligible and eventually sort through the cases for Brees, E. Manning, Rivers, Rodgers and Roethlisberger. and, later, possibly for Flacco and Ryan.

This is a real test, come to think of it, for the selection committee.

What exactly does it mean to be a "Hall of Fame" Quarterback? Brady, Favre and P. Manning are three of the best ever to play the position, with Brady in the debate for GOAT. Putting them in the same category as Bledsoe or Warner or McNabb would devalue Canton's coin, IMO.

What seperates Warner from Bledsoe and McNabb is he was a two time league MVP and a SP MVP. And he would have been a two time SB MVP having brought them back to tie it in the 4th quarter if not for Brady and Vinatieri closing out the last minute and 20 seconds of XXXVI. And he played better in his worst playoff game than either of the other two played in that setting on average. He played on a similar level to the slam dunk HOF QB's in the playoffs.

Warner was still on the outside looking in because of his mid career stumble. But he then turned AZ into contenders and led them to another SB. QB's who take two teams to a SB are a rarity.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Like RayClay said, Morgan and Washington are the standouts IMO. I don't really like it, but Parcells definitely belongs.

I like Drew. But I don't think he deserves it.

Mr. Kraft definitely deserves it. But perhaps not this year. I'd rather he get in alongside with Troy Brown and Tedy Bruschi. :rocker:

P.S. - What the hell did Fred Smerlas ever do to deserve to be in the same sentence as the HOF?

Based on his play those who watched him claim he was the best nose tackle in the game back in his heyday (80's). He was a five time pro bowler and a first team all pro (and second team once as well) during his 11 seasons with the Bills.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Anyone hoping for someone to make a case for Bledsoe should be relieved that the NE representative for the hall selection committee is still Ron Borges.

I hope that changes soon and replace him with someone who doesn't have such disdain for the team.

Unfortunately that won't change until he retires or dies as HOF voters once appointed essentially serve at their own discretion for life. Ron spends as much time covering boxing and golf these days but it doesn't matter. The vote is his for as long as he wants.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Unfortunately that won't change until he retires or dies as HOF voters once appointed essentially serve at their own discretion for life. Ron spends as much time covering boxing and golf these days but it doesn't matter. The vote is his for as long as he wants.

That stinks.