Rodney's thoughts on Moss

[Deus Irae]

Great, now we have "judges"

The New England patriots are now officially in figure skating.

You were posed a fair question.

If Moss quit, why didn't they stop double teaming him?

A real quitter should have been nobody covered, since he like quit.

Oh, knock it off. If I watch something, I'm in a position to judge it. Whether my judgment is accurate or not is a different matter.

As for the rest, again, it's basic team sports. If you've ever played them, you already know the answer.

 

[emoney_33]

So, if they felt that Moss was quitting, then that changes how they defended him? What changed, then? As far as I can tell, they were covering him the same in the second half as they were in the first. They certainly didn't stop doubling him. By your own logic, either they didn't think that he quit or it didn't change how they defended him, and either way you're wrong.

Great, now we have "judges"

The New England patriots are now officially in figure skating.

You were posed a fair question.

If Moss quit, why didn't they stop double teaming him?

A real quitter should have been nobody covered, since he like quit.

So what changed in how they were defending the patriots? At what point did they determine Moss quit on the game and adjusted their strategy?


Receptions / Yards

1st Half:

Welker: 3/24
Watson: 0/0

2nd Half:

Welker: 7/81
Watson: 3/37

You're assuming they didn't. Given your position on people evaluating Moss, that's probably not the best angle for you to take.

I'll just wait for you to respond to the bold questions, which I'm sure you won't.

 

[BradyFTW!]

If I'm playing against player "A", and I think he's having a bad game for any reason other than the attention being paid him, I can pay more attention to other players. It doesn't mean that I won't cover him, but it does mean that I can spread my focus out.

This is basic stuff in any team sport.

But the Panthers didn't spread their focus out. If they had, then Welker and Watson wouldn't have had 10 second-half catches between them. In reality, the Panthers double-teamed Moss throughout the second half, so obviously they didn't spread their focus out. Not sure what you're missing about this...

 

[Deus Irae]

But the Panthers didn't spread their focus out. If they had, then Welker and Watson wouldn't have had 10 second-half catches between them. In reality, the Panthers double-teamed Moss throughout the second half, so obviously they didn't spread their focus out. Not sure what you're missing about this...

I'm not missing anything. You're ignoring the point. If I'm shutting you down, I don't stop covering you. I can start peeking at other players, shading my defense, etc., though.

Now, whether or not I do that is besides the point, and will be based upon a combination of my perspective, the coach's calls, my talent level, etc...

Also, could you post your play-by-play breakdown of the coverage on Moss in comparison to the other Patriots receivers, please?

 

[Deus Irae]

I'll just wait for you to respond to the bold questions, which I'm sure you won't.

Why should I worry about your posts at this point? You're bashing others for making assumptions, yet you're making them yourself.

 

[BradyFTW!]

I'm not missing anything. You're ignoring the point. If I'm shutting you down, I don't stop covering you. I can start peeking at other players, shading my defense, etc., though.

I'm not missing the point at all. You're saying that the coverage should change, I'm saying that it didn't change, and that if changing it was a viable option, they should have and would have, on the grounds that John Fox isn't a complete ******. He wouldn't leave Welker in position to snag 7 crucial second-half catches if he didn't feel that doubling Moss was even more important.

Now, whether or not I do that is besides the point, and will be based upon a combination of my perspective, the coach's calls, my talent level, etc...

Ohhh, okay, so your argument is that they COULD have prevented Welker from having a 10 catch day, but they decided to be generous and keep doubling a guy who had already quit and wasn't even trying. That makes a boatload of sense

Also, could you post your play-by-play breakdown of the coverage on Moss in comparison to the other Patriots receivers, please?

Since you're the one that's asserting that the change happened, that burden would fall to you.

 

[BradyFTW!]

Why should I worry about your posts at this point? You're bashing others for making assumptions, yet you're making them yourself.

In other words, you can't answer any of those questions, and you know you've backed yourself into a corner where you can't even remotely defend your position. Naturally, your defense will be to arrogantly call everyone else clueless until we all go away. Gotcha.

 

[emoney_33]

In other words, you can't answer any of those questions, and you know you've backed yourself into a corner where you can't even remotely defend your position. Naturally, your defense will be to arrogantly call everyone else clueless until we all go away. Gotcha.

Not the first time, won't be the last time.

 

[Deus Irae]

In other words, you can't answer any of those questions, and you know you've backed yourself into a corner where you can't even remotely defend your position. Naturally, your defense will be to arrogantly call everyone else clueless until we all go away. Gotcha.

I wasn't the one berating others for making assumptions, he was. For him to then just ask

So then why didn't he or the Panthers spread their focus out?

which is a blatant assumption, makes his arguments not worth dealing with. If you wish to continue making the same poor arguments he is, more power to you, but pointing to his duplicity as if it's some flaw of mine, and making a stupid "in other words" comment on it, should be beneath you.

 

[SoCalPatsfan90]

You're assuming they didn't. Given your position on people evaluating Moss, that's probably not the best angle for you to take.

I'm not one to get involved in pissing matches, but if they had spread their focus, do you think Welker would have had such a large game? Or 2nd half? I know Welker is a shift, quick guy, but there is only so much you can do when you're focused on. If they had quit on covering Randy, and focused more elsewhere, it's likely to me that Welker wouldn't have been so effective. (btw, other teams have kept Welker down)

Maybe that wasn't the best angle for you to take?

 

[BradyFTW!]

Not the first time, won't be the last time.

I normally like Deus as a poster, but he's got legitimate issues with admitting when he's overstepped himself in an attempt to make a point. Never understood what was so hard about admitting when you've said something dumb, personally. I'm the guy who went into training camp thinking that our pass rush was fine, after all- when you say something so blatantly wrong, you have to either a) admit it, or b) make a giant asshat out of yourself trying to defend an obviously incorrect position.

For some reason, Deus chooses option B fairly consistently, to the point that he's now moving the goalposts to say that Carolina can and should have spread its focus off of Moss, but instead chose to doubleteam a guy that they knew they didn't have to doubleteam, while Welker absolutely eviscerated them on the game-winning drives. It makes no sense, and if someone else claimed it, you can bet that Deus would be the first to rip them a new one for being so mind-numbingly irrational, but hey... it's just one of those things.

 

[emoney_33]

The players defending against him felt that he quit in the game. That sort of thing allows them to change the way they are defending the Patriots.

Did they or did they NOT change the way they were defending the Patriots? It is a simple question, Deus. Or do you just want to say I look foolish and deflect again?

 

[VI PATS]

Maybe I am wrong but during the 96 yard drive didn't Moss have a pretty good block to free Welker for a first down ?

It seems that if Moss is being covered and the opponet thinks they are shutting him down, the Patriots are just using Welker more and he is hurting them.

 

[BradyFTW!]

which is a blatant assumption, makes his arguments not worth dealing with. If you wish to continue making the same poor arguments he is, more power to you, but pointing to his duplicity as if it's some flaw of mine, and making a stupid "in other words" comment on it, should be beneath you.

How is that an assumption? The data backs it up: our #2 and #3 receivers tripled their first-half production in the second half, and it logically follows that they would be the ones who would suffer if the focus was spread out, doesn't it? From that, the only sensible conclusion is that the focus didn't get spread out at all, unless you're willing to go out on a limb and say that they decided to make stopping Isaiah Stanback their gameplan for some reason.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not missing the point at all. You're saying that the coverage should change, I'm saying that it didn't change, and that if changing it was a viable option, they should have and would have, on the grounds that John Fox isn't a complete ******. He wouldn't leave Welker in position to snag 7 crucial second-half catches if he didn't feel that doubling Moss was even more important.

1.) You don't know that it didn't change

2.) Please find where I said it SHOULD change

3.) John Fox went for the field goal in that game. It was pretty clearly not one of his brighter days.

4.) The inability to stop a player is not the same as the failure to try stopping the player. For example, and hoping that my memory is correct on this, the TV guys were breaking down one of the Welker receptions, and noting that he was being covered by 2 men. Again, if my memory is correct, Welker made the catch anyway because, as I believe they noted, the defenders were bracketed high and low rather than side to side, and Welker was able to cut across to get open.

Ohhh, okay, so your argument is that they COULD have prevented Welker from having a 10 catch day, but they decided to be generous and keep doubling a guy who had already quit and wasn't even trying. That makes a boatload of sense

Since you're the one that's asserting that the change happened, that burden would fall to you.

No, that's not my argument at all. What Carolina did, and what they did, or did not, try to do, would be interesting to develop the discussion, but they wouldn't be dispositive in either direction.

You're usually much better than this. Don't let eMoney's silliness on this topic drag you down.

 

[emoney_33]

I normally like Deus as a poster, but he's got legitimate issues with admitting when he's overstepped himself in an attempt to make a point. Never understood what was so hard about admitting when you've said something dumb, personally. I'm the guy who went into training camp thinking that our pass rush was fine, after all- when you say something so blatantly wrong, you have to either a) admit it, or b) make a giant asshat out of yourself trying to defend an obviously incorrect position.

For some reason, Deus chooses option B fairly consistently, to the point that he's now moving the goalposts to say that Carolina can and should have spread its focus off of Moss, but instead chose to doubleteam a guy that they knew they didn't have to doubleteam, while Welker absolutely eviscerated them on the game-winning drives. It makes no sense, and if someone else claimed it, you can bet that Deus would be the first to rip them a new one for being so mind-numbingly irrational, but hey... it's just one of those things.

I agree, I never saw Deus as a bad poster, but his refusal to ever admit a mistake sometimes hurts his credibility and extends threads far off the deep end.

 

[Deus Irae]

How is that an assumption? The data backs it up: our #2 and #3 receivers tripled their first-half production in the second half, and it logically follows that they would be the ones who would suffer if the focus was spread out, doesn't it? From that, the only sensible conclusion is that the focus didn't get spread out at all, unless you're willing to go out on a limb and say that they decided to make stopping Isaiah Stanback their gameplan for some reason.

"How is it an assumption?" Seriously, you're asking me that? Ok, let's get to the bottom of it, because you seem to have lost your mind today.....


eMoney, please post your breakdown on the coverages for every defensive play run by the Panthers, and please do so with enough haste that we know that it was done prior to this post having been made.

 

[emoney_33]

"How is it an assumption?" Seriously, you're asking me that? Ok, let's get to the bottom of it, because you seem to have lost your mind today.....


eMoney, please post your breakdown on the coverages for every defensive play run by the Panthers, and please do so with enough haste that we know that it was done prior to this post having been made.

It is your belief that they changed coverage, and thus the burden of proof is on YOU.

Unless you think I can go claim something like "They quadrupled teamed Moss last week in at least 4 plays, and if you say they didn't then you are just assuming things! The only way I will believe you aren't assuming is if you go break down the film and disprove my assinine hypothesis!"

 

[Deus Irae]

I agree, I never saw Deus as a bad poster, but his refusal to ever admit a mistake sometimes hurts his credibility and extends threads far off the deep end.

Ahh.... Irony. See that Felger thread and your comments for more details. As for the "extends threads", I made a simple point about the perspective of the speakers, and you, along with BradyFTW! are now making claims about coverage.

 

[Deus Irae]

It is your belief that they changed coverage, and thus the burden of proof is on YOU.

Unless you think I can go claim something like "They quadrupled teamed Moss last week in at least 4 plays, and if you say they didn't then you are just assuming things! The only way I will believe you aren't assuming is if you go break down the film and disprove my assinine hypothesis!"

No, the burden is not on me. You made the claim. I didn't:

Originally Posted by emoney_33 View Post
So then why didn't he or the Panthers spread their focus out?

You're deliberately equating the ability to do something with actually doing it, and Brady is making a simply ridiculous 'defense':

But the Panthers didn't spread their focus out. If they had, then Welker and Watson wouldn't have had 10 second-half catches between them. In reality, the Panthers double-teamed Moss throughout the second half, so obviously they didn't spread their focus out. Not sure what you're missing about this....

So, it's you two making the claim, not me. Notice my response to Brady:

I'm not missing anything. You're ignoring the point. If I'm shutting you down, I don't stop covering you. I can start peeking at other players, shading my defense, etc., though.

Now, whether or not I do that is besides the point, and will be based upon a combination of my perspective, the coach's calls, my talent level, etc...

Having the ability to do something is not the same thing as doing it.

Now, how about that play-by-play coverage breakdown?