Reiss: Pats should consider 4-3 edge rushers in draft

[Shelterdog]

Actually, the big knock on Woodley at draft time wasn't his size, it was his speed and athleticism. And it's hard to say that the Patriots "missed" him when he was drafted #46 and they didn't have a 2nd-round pick.

It's ususally uninformative to say a team "missed" a player when you're talking about guys who was drafted in the first 50 picks in the draft; you have lots of needs and very few picks so if you address, for example, safety by picking BMW before Woodley (having just signed Thomas and with Vrabel still playing at a high level), or trading the Matthews pick for picks that became Gronk, Edelman, Tate and Butler, you're not "missing" a player; or getting Hernandez and DMC instead of Dez Bryant, you're not missing anyting; you're addressing another need.

 

[MrBigglesWorth]

we've had this debate on a pass rusher since McGinest left. Sure in 07 they had Colvin before he went down and AD and Vrabel, but the pass rushing position hasn't been addressed in about 4-5 yrs

 

[letekro]

WHat was Colvin 6-2 250? He wasn't great against the run, but before he got hurt he was their best pass rusher. I would take a player like him opposite cunningham in a heartbeat.

 

[RobertWeathers]

WHat was Colvin 6-2 250? He wasn't great against the run, but before he got hurt he was their best pass rusher. I would take a player like him opposite cunningham in a heartbeat.

They list him at 6-3 250.

My take is that Rosey improved on his run defense during the 2005 season as he lost a bit of his burst.

 

[Shelterdog]

we've had this debate on a pass rusher since McGinest left. Sure in 07 they had Colvin before he went down and AD and Vrabel, but the pass rushing position hasn't been addressed in about 4-5 yrs

I think they tried reasonably hard to fix the problem, they just didn't execute.

2007: Colvin and Vrabel are you OLBs,both were good in 2006, but both get injured in season. Colvin badly. Sign a big money free agent in Thomas to use at ILB in 2007 and OLB in 2008.

2008: Vrabel and Thomas at OLB, (Thomas gets hurt badly), used a third round pick to draft Crable (who bombs).

2009: Trade a 2010 third and fourth to get Burgess (who bombs), sign TBC (who does ok), hope Crable can develop (he doesn't).

2010: Add a second round pick in Cunningham.

So in four off-seasons they use a fourth, two third round picks, one second round pick, and a ton of money on Thomas. That's reasonable resources to spend on one position, just ****ty results.

 

[andrewgarrr]

This. Bill is doing what he has to do in the interim based on his roster. That doesn't mean you change the scheme to essentially a base 4-3, it means you redouble your efforts to find more talented players to fit your 3-4 so you don't have to run as many sub packages... When you have the right talent in the trenches in this system the pass rush comes from a variety of sources and makes it much harder for QB's to decipher. Edge rushers are a lot easier to scheme for. Which poses a problem for this system because of what elite ones cost...which tends to impact talent and depth behind them...Just ask the Colts for example.

There are two 3-4 teams competing in the last game of the season on Sunday...

Yeah. I'm sad more people don't realize this. He's not changing his scheme because he wants to, it's because he has to. The 34 base is more versatile.

 

[Mogamedogz]

Ah, good point. Forgot they didn't have a 2nd.

they did have 2 firsts though.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

I've got no dog in this fight but Miller is popping up as a top five pick on some sites after the senior bowl. For example:

NFL Draft - CBSSports.com - NFLDraftScout.com


Scouts Inc has him a the number seven prospect now.

This mock database lists him as a top five guy in at least 15 mocks:

WalterFoootball.com: 2011 NFL Mock Draft Database

EDIT: As to the article, I think Reiss's argument is "draft a pass rusher high and don't worry if they can't play OLB In the base defense, they'll get plenty of run in sub packages."

Well I did say it should be easy and apparently it was. I simply said take him if he was availiable. I'm just getting tired of hearing "he doesn't fit the system" while they continue to roll out the likes of Ninkovich,TBC, Woods, Crable, Eric Moore and Marquis Murrell.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

With regard to drafting LBs for the 3-4, it is interesting how different the personnel philosophies are between NE & Pitt. For OLB, we all know BB likes them to be 6-3 + 250lb +

For Pitt, they'll "settle" for a sub 6-3 250+ as both Harrison, Porter, and Woodley fall into this category (maybe not the weight so much).

Pitt seems to put a greater priority on speed while the Pats prefer size.

For ILBs, Pats like the size more while Pitt will go for a smaller, but quicker player with Timmons and Foote being the examples there for Pitt with guys like Bru, Johnson, Spikes and Mayo having more size than speed (although you can say Mayo has speed to burn).

TBC, Ninkovich and Murrell are all under 6'3 and about 250 pounds.
Cunningham is listed as 6'3 260
Moore is listed at 6'4 268 but played more end than LB.

 

[Shelterdog]

Well I did say it should be easy and apparently it was. I simply said take him if he was availiable. I'm just getting tired of hearing "he doesn't fit the system" while they continue to roll out the likes of Ninkovich,TBC, Woods, Crable, Eric Moore and Marquis Murrell.

I guess I just don't understand the issue people have here. Since 2007 (when they spent too much for the failed Thomas experiment) they haven't been able to find a stud OLB they like at the right price so they've addressing other needs first and filled the gap with ok performances from players that do fit their system; why is this a problem? You can only plug so many holes in a draft.

 

[skinnydog]

Why is there really any debate on this. It's glaringly obvious they need to improve their pass rush. BB uses multiple sub packages all the time. on third down they have four guys with their hand down all the time. God forbid one of those would be a legit speed rusher who can get to the QB.

 

[Deus Irae]

32 teams want game changing pass rushers.

How many such players are currently in the NFL?*






*Let's not count one-year wonders.

 

[RobertWeathers]

TBC, Ninkovich and Murrell are all under 6'3 and about 250 pounds.
Cunningham is listed as 6'3 260
Moore is listed at 6'4 268 but played more end than LB.

Nink is 6-3.

Rob Ninkovich NFL & AFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Murrell is a STer. Same classification as Izzo and Don Davis.

TBC was a 7th rounder.

However AD was 6-2 but was 270.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Why is there really any debate on this. It's glaringly obvious they need to improve their pass rush. BB uses multiple sub packages all the time. on third down they have four guys with their hand down all the time. God forbid one of those would be a legit speed rusher who can get to the QB.

I think the debate is that this team should not spend so much time in sup-packages because it lacks top-level talent at 3-4 DE and OLB.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

Nink is 6-3.

Rob Ninkovich NFL & AFL Football Statistics - Pro-Football-Reference.com

Murrell is a STer. Same classification as Izzo and Don Davis.

TBC was a 7th rounder.

However AD was 6-2 but was 270.

Ninkovich is listed as 6'2 at NFL.com
Rob Ninkovich, OLB for the New England Patriots at NFL.com
The players I listed are the current crop of OLB's on the roster and most of them do not fit the ideal measurements. Moore, if consdered a LB is the only one 6'4 or over Cunningham is 6'3 260+, the rest are between 6'2-6'3 and about 250lbs.

 

[Shelterdog]

32 teams want game changing pass rushers.

How many such players are currently in the NFL?*

*Let's not count one-year wonders.

Exactly. Only 15 guys had 10 or more sacks in 2007 (including Vrabel), 12 guys had 10 or more sacks in 2008, 13 guys had 10 or more in 2009 (including TBC), and 20 had that many this year. There are only 13-15 players I'd call game changing pass rusher (Ware, Freeney, Woodley, Tuck when healthy, Allen but he's getting old, Harrison, Mario Williams, Peppers, Suggs, Dumervil when he's healthy, Abraham, Matthews, and maybe Hali and Orakapo?).

 

[patsfan55]

Run defense in subpackages wasn't great this season, and adding a "hair on fire" type of player wouldn't help with that. I'd rather see a McGinest type, a player who plays the run well and rushes the passer well, but is kinda iffy in coverage. Heck, I think a Jarvis Green type is a better fit than a Matthews or Woodley type.

Willie was just as good a pash rusher as Woodley. He had so many pressures that never ended up in the stat sheet, but affected the game just as much.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Ninkovich is listed as 6'2 at NFL.com
Rob Ninkovich, OLB for the New England Patriots at NFL.com
The players I listed are the current crop of OLB's on the roster and most of them do not fit the ideal measurements. Moore, if consdered a LB is the only one 6'4 or over Cunningham is 6'3 260+, the rest are between 6'2-6'3 and about 250lbs.

Yea I don't know what to make of Moore. I've seen him on his feet but mostly on the ground. Who knows. Willie Mac put his hand on the ground too. So did Vrabes.

My point was that BB "ideally" likes LBs on the larger side. Certainly if the player is a very good one and fit into the system he'd bring him in.

Take as an example James Harrison. I couldn't care less if he was only 6-0 and 245. The man is a wrecking machine and I would want him on this team in a heartbeat.

 

[patsoxfan]

Run defense in subpackages wasn't great this season, and adding a "hair on fire" type of player wouldn't help with that. I'd rather see a McGinest type, a player who plays the run well and rushes the passer well, but is kinda iffy in coverage. Heck, I think a Jarvis Green type is a better fit than a Matthews or Woodley type.

That is ridiculous. Dont you know that these players play different positions. Jarvis Green is a 5 which is a 3-4 D-end. In 3-4 or 4-3 Matthews and Woodley
play OLB same as McGinest. So what your saying is Green is a better fit at what? DE, I hope so. But in no way is Green a better fit at OLB.

 

[makoute]

He's gonna have to cut down on his size requirements too, missed too many good players like woodley because they were too small. Crable was the perfect size :bricks: . Interested to see if Cunningham makes a big jump next season like Patrick Chung did.

You should say, Height requirement, Woodley was not that small weight size coming out.