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Reiss: Pats should consider 4-3 edge rushers in draft

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by jmt57, Jan 31, 2011.

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  1. jmt57

    jmt57 Moderator Staff Member PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Why the New England Patriots should think outside their system when making draft decisions - espnBoston - Mike Reiss

    Interesting column by Reiss. He notes that the Pats were in their base 3-4 alignment for just 40% of their snaps last season, and were in a sub package with five or more defensive backs 57% of the time. He says that formation is what "sunk them", based on their ranking last in the NFL on 3rd down. From there he says the Pats should get away from only scouting players that would appear to be fits for a 3-4 and look at 4-3 prototypes as well.

    Reiss also says that although the Pats have done well looking for three- and four-down players, they would be well served to consider two-down players in this upcoming draft.

  2. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Run defense in subpackages wasn't great this season, and adding a "hair on fire" type of player wouldn't help with that. I'd rather see a McGinest type, a player who plays the run well and rushes the passer well, but is kinda iffy in coverage. Heck, I think a Jarvis Green type is a better fit than a Matthews or Woodley type.
  3. Mogamedogz

    Mogamedogz Rookie

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    You can't be serious.
  4. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Not comparing talent level, just style of play. I'd rather have a big pass-rusher who is not a liability against the run compared to a "hair on fire" type who leaves the draw lanes wide open.
  5. Froob

    Froob Rookie

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    He's gonna have to cut down on his size requirements too, missed too many good players like woodley because they were too small. Crable was the perfect size :bricks: . Interested to see if Cunningham makes a big jump next season like Patrick Chung did.
  6. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    If Cunningham improves his tackling, that's an extra 7 sacks or so right there.
  7. seven

    seven Rookie

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    I do not have enough data to say which player,
    therefore to know which formation is best.
    How much time is required to really feel like one
    knows the draft? I watch maybe a dozen college games/year.
    So clueless, on that.
    But i am 100% down with more mayhem, please.
    However they wish to bring it.

    One monster on this year's squad, and I think
    they would be definitively punching the Cheezit's
    ticket next week,
    you know?
    Great, and frustrating year.
    looking forward to the draft, seeing what moves they make.
    Like a Christmas, with lots of extra cash.
  8. Froob

    Froob Rookie

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    Yea, wasn't his only sack of the year a fumble? If he bulks up a bit or something he's going to be a beast.
  9. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Yeah, he never actually tackled the QB behind the LoS :lol2:

    It's okay, though. I don't mind that he was a half-second late on Manning's game-ending pick, and I can't blame him for not tackling Sanchez when he was being swung around by his facemask.
  10. Snake Eyes

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    If Sanchez has his hand on Cunningham's facemask then he simply needs to grab Sanchez's wrist and fall to the ground, Sanchez will go with him.
  11. Sciz

    Sciz PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    He's a rookie. He doesn't think that fast:p
  12. Armchair Quarterback

    Armchair Quarterback Rookie

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    I'm glad someone else is saying it, I've been saying this for years. When Ninkovich, TBC, Shawn Crable, Pierre Woods are the best you can come up with for 3-4 OLB's, it may be time to change the criteria (I like Cunningham and think he will develop into a good player but they need more 1 sack from him) . I also said in another thread this week that they should draft Von Miller if he is availiable, even if it means playing him only on passing downs. They have to find a way to pressure the QB.
  13. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    They run so many subpackages because they can't get the job done in their base alignment. When we had our 'great' defenses in the SB years, they ran the base 34 much more than the subpackages. If we had the personnel to run the base 34 successfully in any situation (which is ideal), then they would be running it more. Guys like Seymour, Vrabel, Warren, Harrison, played the position completely and didn't need to be subbed in on 'passing' or 'rushing' situations.
  14. andrewgarrr

    andrewgarrr Banned

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    I think a lot of the reason why BB didn't draft OLB or edge rushers in recent years is because he believed in the development of Crable. He had all the physical tools that BB likes at the position (minus 10-15 lbs). But then again he did draft Cunningham...

    Just speculating.
  15. WelshPat

    WelshPat Rookie

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    How many times is the other team really going to try the draw though? Once maybe twice a game? (On 3rd and long)

    If Peyton Manning is behind center and repeatedly calls draw plays on 3rd down I'm leaping for joy if I'm BB
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2011
  16. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    He believed that Crable could develop into a good player. The problem is that he never did.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2011
  17. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    This. Bill is doing what he has to do in the interim based on his roster. That doesn't mean you change the scheme to essentially a base 4-3, it means you redouble your efforts to find more talented players to fit your 3-4 so you don't have to run as many sub packages... When you have the right talent in the trenches in this system the pass rush comes from a variety of sources and makes it much harder for QB's to decipher. Edge rushers are a lot easier to scheme for. Which poses a problem for this system because of what elite ones cost...which tends to impact talent and depth behind them...Just ask the Colts for example.

    There are two 3-4 teams competing in the last game of the season on Sunday...
  18. DarrylStingley

    DarrylStingley Rookie

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    Reiss is probably right but BB isn't likely to adjust his system based on what he learned this year. One thing we know is that BB doesn't seem to react or overreact year to year. He has a plan and sticks to it. Sometimes, in my view, to a fault.
  19. borg

    borg Rookie

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    Amen. Now I can understand BB seeking the complete OLB on 1st downs and short yardage 3rd downs when the run/pass is a toss up. But I have always scratched my head as to why he loads the roster with special teams "specialists" but neglects the pass rush "specialist". TBC is as close as they have, and it will be interesting to see if BB is willing to continue paying his salary considering his disappearing act this year.

    Personally, I'd prefer 4 attack DL on third down that shoot gaps instead of locking up. As I've said in a draft thread, give me Jordan and Watts bookending Wilfork and Wright on 3rd down. Jordan seems more complete in the BB 3-4 model, but Watts is just a QB seeking animal that would instill some passion and fire in this defense.

    A draft of DL Jordan and OLB Miller could be the ticket though. Miller has the athletic skills to rush the QB, drop in coverage, or blanket the RB that releases out of the backfield. My pet peeve with the current defense is the total lack of concern for releasing RB. Either it is a scheme malfunction or a poor matchup for our OLBs. ....Miller time.

    The Patriots can afford a luxory or two this year....with their bounty of picks. All I know is that the 3rd down deficiencies have to be solved NOW. Give Brady more chances to operate and this team could be scary good....in the playoffs. Add some extra pressure on the QB and imagine the INTs this secondary could amass.
  20. flycessna

    flycessna Rookie

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    I am a little confused by this...

    Are we saying he should go after a pure 4-3 edge pass rusher because he would be more effective when we run sub packages...

    Or are we going after a 4-3 pure edge pass rusher because they are easier to draft and would provide an immediate solution??

    I have to say I am not all the well versed on the 3-4 vs the 4-3 and the dynamics of running either but it appears to me that giving the right personal the 3-4 is pretty effective and in of itself causes mayham.. Losing seymore has hurt this defense... Even with ty coming back I almost say draft a top DL with that 17th pick....



    BB sticks to a plan to a fault??

    I look at the teams success and realize we are very lucky to have a guy like BB.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2011
  21. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    What luxury do they have? Sure they had a very good record last year but have lost their last two playoff games so clearly they are not where they need to be.

    The key attributing factors were lack of a pass rush and a running game that didn't scare anyone because the defense wasn't respected.

    With the 6 picks in the first 100, they need to hit on 4 with two being on the o-line and two on defense, preferably at OLB and 3-4 DT.
  22. Peachhead

    Peachhead PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Indy's Dwight Freeney is one of the most electrifying 4-3 pass rushers in the league. ESPN-type shows are full of his highlight reels. Robert Mathis is no slouch in the pass rushing stats either.

    It doesn't stop Indy's defense from sucking out loud year after year.

    How about this? We sucked on 3rd down. We were in sub-packages the majority of the time on third down. Therefore, we sucked in sub-packages.

    So get the hell out of sub-packages so often! (IOW get some 3-4 D-line studs again so we can make that work better)
  23. DarrylStingley

    DarrylStingley Rookie

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    Of course, but he's human and not infallible.

    If he was, he wouldn't have continued to tape after getting a memo from the NFL that taping wasn't allowed. He would have made better adjustments to what the opposing defenses were doing in SB 42 and the Jets playoff game. He would have had a better plan B when he played hard ball with Deion and Asante.

    To be clear, I love BB and would want no one else. Best coach in the NFL.

    But that we're lucky to have him is not inconsistent with the notion that there are times when I'd and I assumed others would prefer he adjusted or changed more.
  24. borg

    borg Rookie

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    The luxury they have is double picks in the first 3 rounds. The luxory they can add to this roster is a pass rush specialist using a first rounder , a player BB would NEVER normally add considering his modus operendi is to use 1st rounders for 3 down players.
  25. VJCPatriot

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    Get a stud 3-4 DE and a lot of problems go away.
    Did you realize that we were missing Ty Warren, starting Gerrard Warren and starting a mix of Brace and god knows who else on the other side this season?

    The Pats DL needs upgrading up front with a guy who can command double teams. Whether that is Jordan or Watt, I don't know but if I know BB, he's going to go after the 6-4 to 6-6 prototype DE in the upcoming draft. A pass rush specialist unfortunately is hard to find for the Pats. Every team is looking for pass rusher but it's hard to project to the Pats 3-4 OLB position.
  26. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    The defense needs more 3 down players- not specialists. You can acquire a specialist in the 3rd round or later.
  27. borg

    borg Rookie

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    Crable is waving to you, from the street.
    Enough with the "developmental" approach.
    This was a 14-2 team with a couple of flaws...one being QB pressure leading to an anemic 3rd down defense. I'm betting BB won't let this opportunity go to waste. Either he secures upgrades via Free Agency, or he targets a difference maker using multiple picks.

    Consider the following:
    1) 3 consecutive playoff losses
    2) Jets success
    a. Value of veterans free agents
    3) NFL players openly mocking Patriots achievements
    4) Steelers defensive prowess leading to 3rd SB trip
    5) Brady's age
    6) Belichicks age and diminishing "Defensive Genus" label

    Even though his public personna is closer to cyborg than human, I have to believe BB is very conscious of his legacy and place in NFL history. Spygate overshadows his 3 Lombardis, at least in the minds of many non Patriot players. The more I think about, the stronger my belief that Kraft and Belichick will load this roster now.
  28. asfpnepRefugee

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    Considering that Von Miller is being discussed as a top 5 pick, I think we shouldn't be using phrases like "if he is available" in regards to him.
  29. sebman2112

    sebman2112 Rookie

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    Woodley drops into coverage, and is strong against the run. Why do people keep repeating this garbage?
  30. robertweathers

    robertweathers Rookie

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    I don't follow. Crable was not drafted as a specialist. He was drafted to be a 3-down OLB. He just didn't develop into one.

    I would argue that this team had multiple flaws and all were proven out as flaws vs the Jets.

    -Average run defense
    -Average red zone defense
    -Barely adequate CB opposite DMc
    -Lack of a deep threat in the passing game
    -A running game that is not respected by opposing defenses
    -Sub-standard pass rush

    Some of these shortcomings will be (I assume) fixed next year with Bodden and Ty Warren returning and a couple of Rd1 kids via the draft.

    Seeing how the team's last two drafts have produced a plethora of front-line players, I'd be surprised if BB deviates from that philosophy and becomes the New York Yankees of the NFL.

    I agree that they team needs to break the bank in FA or a blockbuster trade for a 3-4 DE AND a 3- down OLB but if they aren't there, then you have no choice but to draft and attempt to develop one.
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2011
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