Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by pats1, Aug 5, 2006.
"LOOK AHEAD: With the Patriots not practicing Saturday and Sunday, things should be quiet. Barring any unexpected transactions, our next update will be Monday around noon, after Bill Belichick's scheduled press conference."
This means that there will actually be a chance.... a CHANCE...the Patriots will not suffer any more injuries until Monday.
i really HATE these news...i'm always very worried about injuries on TC and-or pre-season games...
They (injuries during camp or pre-season) are, however, an undeniable fact of life. They happen every year to everybody. No sense worrying about them, because they will happen.
i agree Pats67, but when it happens to US i feel very bad
and let's hope Tedy will recover soon
I was really hoping the injury bug would leave the PATs alone
this year. It doesn't seem so. It keeps niping at the roster and
the depth keeps getting worst. Very Sad. and yet PATs
got over 12M and they got scrubs for depth and their #1 recceiver
is still not in camp Go figure it.
Maybe success has gone to their heads and they are just down
right arrogant thinking they can win with scrubs for backups.
every day i hope to see a good new about Deion Branch
let's hope we will have something good coming out soon...
friday we play @ ATL...ok...only an exhibition game but still...
anyway i am sure that when week.1 regular season will start we will be fine.
i feel it.
It's not like we lost a front line player. ST gunner was one of the deepest positions on the team. I feel bad about Mitchell, but we still have Tebucky, who's an improvement on coverage over last year.
Relax. At worse Bruschi is out for a couple of RS games, games we should win reagrdless (Buffalo, @NY Jets). History has shown that the Pats will use that cap space wisely.
As for Branch, screw him if he doesn't show up. Popular opinion is fixated with WRs, yet the Pats have never sent a WR to the Pro Bowl (Troy Brown was listed as a special teamer) during their dynastic reign and a SB champion hasn't sent a WR to Honolulu since Issac Bruce after the 1999 season. The Raiders signed Moss and finished 4-12. Too many silly media predictions are WR-based.
"Ooooh Team A got Bigname WR, they're ready for a SB run!!!"
Get a few ice cubes, put them in the Kool Aid and chill.
This article might give you a "Lttle Depth Preception"
Of course you might not be able to read it with those rose colored glasses on.
Take them off and try to read with an open mind.
I could care less about what Felger or Tomase or Borges for that matter thinks. Half of the people on this board could bring better insight.
Great response. Guess you couldn't read it after all. It's those glasses.
Depth is always a concern, regardless of injury. Mitchell was brought in to replace Matt Chatham.
Bummer, I was really looking forward to special teams' ace, Mel Mitchell.
Unfortunately for you, these glasses have been right. Remember last November, after the Chiefs game? My thread titled "I remain highly optimistic?" Do you remember what the Pats did after that? They won 4 straight, then Cassel and co. came a 2-point conversion away from beating the Dolphins' starters.
Or how about March, when T-Shirt had to hand out Chicken Little insurance policies to everyone who walked through the door, because they all started threads about how "The Pats were losing their magic?"
What about when SoonerPatriot criticized the speed of the Pats' rookie contract negotiations? Were they all into camp on time?
Decent atricle by Felger. Of course, you can't get a straight answer from BB only a question like this but one possible explanation Felger overlooks is that the Patriots are trying to focus on the rookies/young players to build some newer, longer lasting depth. It was just last year the Pats were getting props about quality of their drafts (I think they are a little overrrated in this area), maybe the Pats think it's time the guys they drafted start to PLAY, and not just walk the sidelines.
Right on. I don't understand the fetish some have with older, somewhat injury-prone and higher-priced players like Poole, Law, Starks, McGinest, Johnson, Phifer, Traylor, Andruzzi, Woody, Ashworth, Fauria, Patten, Smith, etc. It's no secret injuries and a good dose of **** calls in Denver were a huge part of the Pats' demise last season.
When those older players are replaced with the likes of Maroney, Watson, Wilfork, Mankins, Warren, Jackson, Kaczur, Hobbs, Sanders, Thomas, Koppen, Samuel, Gay, Samuel, Wilson, Seymour, and Light, depth doesn't go down the drain.
Better yet, when younger players like that are supplemented with veterans like Vrabel, Bruschi, Hawkins, Tebucky, Chad Scott, Dillon, Chad Brown, Troy Brown, etc., you can't deny that's a winning combinaton.
Maybe you should replay the season last year ... the first 10 game will do.
If the lack of quality depth in those games and the result doesn't
translate to what is happening before your very eyes then there is nothing I
say that will induce even the sightest concern on your part.
It is a very good thing the PATs have an easier schedule this year.
BB didnt sign a bunch of superstars or over pay those who left because all it will do will leave you with a horrible cap like the Colts. And what have the Colts done with their juggernaut of an offense? Definitley nothing in the playoffs. You say scrubs, I think your foolish, most teams in the league have backups that our scrubs. The Patriots have good backups at RB, Cassel isnt bad, WR is an issue, Offenive Line we have some good guys as back ups. D-Line their is Jarvis Green. Linebacker there is Brown, Gardner(whos started before) and a few others. Some like Izzo will be special teamers, good special teamers. CB's our likely 4th and 5th stringers with be veterans that have had success...Scott and Warfield. Safeties, Tebucky, Sanders(may not be a backup), Scott, Hawkins will be once Harrison returns. We have some solid backups. I dont know where you are coming from, they dont have to be big names to be solid players. Thats what we have a lot of solid players that we dont overpay for. Hence why the Patriots have won 3 superbowls in 4 years.
2005...we thought we had superb backsups. I mean just look at it, Samuel...Gay, Poole, Starks and Chad Scott to choose from plus the rookie Hobbs. We draft a safety in the fourth round. Our secondary will be amazing! Poole injured, Scott injured, Gay injured, Starks injured. Then we bring in Hank Poteat. Rodney goes down, so does Guss Scott. Did anyone expect that?
Your just about the most negative poster I have seen on this sight. Just calm down now, Regular Season doesnt start until September. You can start panicing if the Pats go on a losing streak.
A response that side steps the issue. Talk about the depth TODAY at
ILB, WR and even the Dline.
if they had to play today tell me who your starters who are your 2nd string
players. Write it out ... show me this wonderful depth you are speaking of.
AS of Today. ( if you use injured players put an '*' next to his name. )
Agreed. The Pats had the depth to start off with, but when their starters got hurt, their depth got injured too. Enter Michael Stone, Hank Poteat, and Artrell Hawkins.
Guss Scott got hurt. Then Sanders got hurt. Then Poole got hurt. Then Rodney got hurt. Then Gay got hurt. Then Starks got hurt. Then Chad Scott got hurt.
When the merry-go-round was finally over, only Hobbs, Samuel, Poteat, Wilson, Hawkins, and Stone were left.
The depth was there, but the sheer amount of injuries (and this is only the secondary) would have completely derailed most other teams. The fact that the Pats stuck in it until almost the AFC Championship is something to be noticed.
Most of these injuries, and the people sitting, you see right now are precautionary. If the Pats were playing a real game this week you would probably see the majority of the players out there, but why aggravate or make worse any injury in early August. Richard Seymour basically said that the other day.
As far as depth goes, who knows how the replacements will do. We know nothing about Mincey, Woods, and how Sanders and Hobbs are going to transition into their second season, just like a 6th round pick named Brady from not too long ago had people complaining he was the back-up to Bledsoe had the scribes in Boston thinking the Pats were not going to win the Super Bowl anytime soon.
Because of what this team has been turned into over the past six years, because of what Beioli has done, I will give them the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. To that I say: "In Bill we trust" and have another drink of kool-aid.
What kind of injured players do you speak of? The only injured players where there's any legit question of their regular season status would be Mitchell, Rodney, Gay, Pass, and Kaczur. Koppen is out there snapping in practice with Brady, so you'd have to imagine he's only days away from returning. There's no solid info on Bruschi yet.
As you can see here, versatility (go ask BB about that) is the key. Having a guy like Vrabel who can play both inside and outside is a huge advantage. C. Brown had to start at ILB last year, we know how that turned out, but as the nickel ILB in the playoffs performed well. Now, he's down to basically the #4 or 5 ILB - a situation that probably won't even occur.
It's also possible he'll still see time at ILB in the nickel.
Outside they're even in better shape.
Izzo, Davis, Gardner, Alexander, T.B.C., and Mincey will all bring something to the table on special teams.
You may come back and say if so-and-so plus so-and-so goes down then they'll only have so-and-so left, who is an unproven rookie. Well, unless you want to have a bunch of proven 35-year olds (T.J., Phifer, etc.) as all of your depth, and don't supplement it with younger guys like TBC, Alexander, Beisel, and Mincey, then you're turning a cold shoulder to the future and thus will be in trouble.
With Andrews, Jackson, or Maroney likely taking over return duties, there's no reason to carry the 6th WR as the Pats have done in the past, which has always been Bethel as a KR/PR. Childress could get he boot if the Pats want to add one more vet to the mix later on in camp, or make a trade like they did last year for Andre' Davis.
Seymour* (we all saw him in the on-field walkthrough, we all heard him say they wanted to be cautious with his quad, but if the season started today he would play, so there's really no reason to even put the asterisk.)
Green* (injury doesn't appear serious)
Hill* (no word on his injury)
This position has been traditionally one of the deepest on the Pats, and it has remained unchanged for a few years now. With the 3-4 scheme, the Pats won't be carrying any more than 6 or 7 DLs. The starters are so good that Green and Hill, who would likely start in most other systems, don't see all that much playing time. Green sees his as a situational rusher, while Hill is part of the goalline defense. Wright brings versatility to play either outside or inside, essentially that 7th man on the line. Klecko, Sullivan, and Smith battle it out for that backup NT job. Smith looks to be a favorite, and as a hand-picked draft pick of Beioli, you would think they have confidence in him to do just that.
I can't even see where you have legit concerns of depth on the defensive line.
You forgot some of '*' and question marks.
Deion is a hold out and reports say he is willing to go until 10th week
You can't use Vrabel at OLB and ILB as a starter.
So let me try to reconstruct your line up in the way I asked
starters and second string
Starters: Branch* and Caldwell
Backups: Brown and Jackson*(and significantly behind)
Starters: Beisel* and Bruschi*(hopeful his injury isn't a broken bone)
Backups: Gardner and Izzo/Davis
( if doesn't cause you concern nothiong will )
Starters: Colvin and Vrabel
Backups: Brown and TBC
(OLB isn't bad ... didn't think it was)
Starters: Seymour Wilfork Warren
Backups: Green* Seymour Klecko/Hill*
if Green and Hill get healthy Dline should be solid.
Not counting on Sullivan.
Wilfork's replacement may be Seymour if not there isn't quality backup for Wilfork.
The major concerns for me are WR and ILB.
If PATs had to start today and indicated injured players do not play then
Starters: Brown and Caldwell
Backups: Childress and Jackson*(and significantly behind)
( to me that does not inspire confidence )
Starters: Gardner and Izzo
Backups: Alexander and Davis
(visions of last season with C.Brown and Beisel as ILBs ... maybe worst)
Again Pats must be very good from the getgo this season because
they play all their division rivals in the first 5 weeks.
Have you been living under a rock for the last 4 years?
The Pats are all about versatility. I expected you to realize that.
If the #1 and #2 SS went down, for example, do you think the Pats would bring in their #2 FS (in this case Tebucky) or their #3 SS?
The answer would most likely be their #2 FS.
That's where the whole Vrabel/Brown thing comes in. It's way too simple-minded to list the Pats' depth chart, classify each player under one position, and then whine when one position doesn't appear to have enough depth.
Again, the answer is right next door to ILB - OLB. Of course Vrabe wouldn't be able to start at both OLB and ILB at the same time, but if Beisel or Bruschi goes down, Vrabel would be moved inside BEFORE Gardner sees time as a starter. Chad Brown or TBC would start at OLB. THEN, if another ILB were to go down, chances are TBC would start at OLB and Brown at ILB STILL BEFORE Gardner comes in. If ANOTHER ILB was to go down, THEN you would see Gardner come in. And if ANOTHER ILB went down, Beioli would sign a street free agent to see time before Izzo would.
Quite obviously, the chances of the Pats even getting to that third, nevermind fourth or fifth, situation are slim. You seem to take offense to the fact that the Pats don't have a Pro-Bowler for each situation instead of Gardner or Brown. It's a 53-man roster, and each player has a role. Most likely, Izzo or Davis are going to do a better job of filling their role as backup ILBs - SPECIAL TEAMS - better than a player that would replace them on a roster just to satisfy your strange thirst for Pro-Bowl depth.
Also, Earth to JR4:
THE BILLS AND JETS SUCK.
If you believe Seymour sitting out with a sore quad or the Pats not having f'in Lawrence Taylor backing up at ILB means they will struggle with division opponents early on, you're a lost cause.
The Pats are EASILY head, shoulders, arms, legs, and anything else above the Bills and the Jets, and despite the delusions of Dolphins fans, a superior team through and through to the misfit mammals of the sea.
Why are some people saying our DL depth is weak ? We lost no-one and brought in Sullivan and Smith to compete for backup improvments. I don't get it.
Regarding Mitchell, it's a shame but it happens and this isn't exactly Brady or Seymour.
There is really no reason to insult or be degrading. Just state your opinions
without personal assults.
As for moving Vrable inside and moving guys around that is not the point.
The depth is a concern. Sliding Vrable over to cover ILB is not without
If you did that you then have an older player who was scheduled for rotation
to assume a much more demanding role. He may hold up or his age may
become a factor. TBC as of late has been having problems. But also consider
that without Beisel in there how effective will Vrable be if he takes all inside
snaps next to Gardner. How will they work together? Just the other week
Bruschi talked about the time he and Beisel have been able to work togehter
and how they are developing together.
The point is that it is not as straight forward as it may appear.
First off, you're quibbling here. Secondly, you're contradicting yourself.
Any time one player replaces another there's going to be changes for both his battery mates and himself. Vrabel and Chad Brown are in the best situation to do this, as they've been on the team and the players around them are confortable playing with them.
"It's not as straight forward as it may appear."
Thank you! You're making my point! Bringing in another ILB (Donnie Edwards has been tossed arond) for depth wouldn't be as straight-forward as it appears. As you just said, there would be issues with chemistry and him learning the system. In that case, it might even be better to put Chad Brown in there, because he (or Vrabel) has this comfort level you just so stressed!
The bottom-line is, you don't understand the Patriots' strive for versatility. Depth IS versatility. Versatility IS depth. That has been the foundation of the Patriots, and I'm stunned you still haven't realized it.
Why is he unbelievable?
Does the FO understand that what cost $ x last year now costs $ x + 20% x ?
Separate names with a comma.