red sox ot: clemens goin to the yanks

[Real World]

20M for 20ish starts or so (if hes healthy). What a joke.


Clemens, Mussina, Pettite (hahahahahaha), can you say "Glory Days". Come on Georgie, time to move forward a few years and keep up with the jones'

Again, it's not your money is it? Even if they paid $100 million, who cares? They don't have a budget, and even if they did, this deal expires at the end of the year. Had the Sox signed him in June for $18 million, people in here would be demanding they mail the ring to Yawkey Way immediately.

Clemens (again, NL=grain of salt but...) had a sub 2, and then a 2.30 ERA the last two years in that band box known as Minute Maid Park.

Mussina was 5th in the Majors in ERA last year at 3.53. Why is it that Mussina, at 38 in ancient to Sox fans, and over the hill, while Schilling, who's 2 years older, and who's ERA last year was half a run higher at 3.97, isn't as big a concern?

Pettitte is only 34. He's a two time 21 game winner. He's pitched extremely well this season, albeit it's early. Still, he's a proven commodity who's done it in the AL East, and has pitched some huge games in the playoffs. Would Sox fans not take him? Why do some (I stress some) Sox fans look at things so blindly?

 

[Foley]

Signing Clemens is a plus, even though I'm not convinced he can pitch well in the AL East. The NL is so much weaker than the AL. The question is, if he maintains an ERA of 4.00, and can pitch 6-7 innings, will he be worth it? I think so, simply because the Yankees score so much.

Maintaining an ERA of 4.00 probably wont be a huge problem. Expecting him to go 6-7 innings will be. He averaged just under 6 innings a start last season, so unless hes on the juice he wouldn't have gained stamina in that time to have the ability to go more than 6IP on a regular basis. He'll still be a tax on the bullpen, but what few innings he gets should at least be decent. He'll be good but not great, and like some others have pointed out a healthy Wang and Mussina is going to be exponentially more important than Roger Clemens.

RedSox fans always make me laugh when it comes to the issue of money. Sure, the Yankees spend more than any other team in baseball. That advantage is significant, extremely significant. However, the RedSox spend more money than everyone else in baseball not named the Yankees. The Sox are at $160 million in payroll. When it comes to money, I can understand the A's and Royals complaining, but the RedSox complaining is bit disengenuous IMO.

The Red Sox opening day payroll was at $143,026,214. The Yankees opening day payroll was at $189,639,045. Add in Clemens to that (he'll get paid around $18M) and it boosts the payroll to $207,639,045.

The difference between the Red Sox payroll and the Yankees payroll is $64,612,831.

The difference between the Red Sox Payroll and the Athletics payroll is $63,659,274.

So despite being the team with the second highest payroll they are closer in payroll to teams like the Athletics than they are the Yankees. Untill the gap between the teams is a bit closer (and it was before Clemens) than the fact that the Red Sox are second in payroll doesn't mean that they are anywhere close to the Yankees in that regard. So while I am by no means complaining about this and couldn't care less if the Yankees spent $300M a year, anyone complaining about the Yankees spending a lot more than the Red Sox is very much justified.

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Yeah......... what he said.

Actually, that was my point. Not that the RS pitchers are all spring chickens, it just that the Yanks are all getting old.

Again. Pettite and Clemens are facing better hitters this year and if thier pitch counts sky going into batting battles, they'll be toasted by the 5th or 6th. I don't care if your starter is 0.0, if you can only go 5 sides a start and have to keep trotting the likes of Vizcaino and Proctor out there night after night (on tired arms no less), you're gonna struggle hard.

We'll see how it turns out. This move reeks of desperation to me. Then again, the yanks are in a pretty desperate pitching situation. The offense can carry you so far, but the ability for a few guys to go long into games in the rotation is huge.

 

[dalero]

wgaf............ Why do the "pink hat" baseball fans insist on posting on the Patriopts site?

You did have to scroll to the Boston Red Sox forum section to post this, right? I read and post here at times and have yet to see any "pink hats" here.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

Maintaining an ERA of 4.00 probably wont be a huge problem. Expecting him to go 6-7 innings will be. He averaged just under 6 innings a start last season, so unless hes on the juice he wouldn't have gained stamina in that time to have the ability to go more than 6IP on a regular basis. He'll still be a tax on the bullpen, but what few innings he gets should at least be decent. He'll be good but not great, and like some others have pointed out a healthy Wang and Mussina is going to be exponentially more important than Roger Clemens.
The Red Sox opening day payroll was at $143,026,214. The Yankees opening day payroll was at $189,639,045. Add in Clemens to that (he'll get paid around $18M) and it boosts the payroll to $207,639,045.

The difference between the Red Sox payroll and the Yankees payroll is $64,612,831.

The difference between the Red Sox Payroll and the Athletics payroll is $63,659,274.

So despite being the team with the second highest payroll they are closer in payroll to teams like the Athletics than they are the Yankees. Untill the gap between the teams is a bit closer (and it was before Clemens) than the fact that the Red Sox are second in payroll doesn't mean that they are anywhere close to the Yankees in that regard. So while I am by no means complaining about this and couldn't care less if the Yankees spent $300M a year, anyone complaining about the Yankees spending a lot more than the Red Sox is very much justified.

On your first point, you are absolutely correct. Clemens was a 5-6 inning pitcher in the NL (and it wasn't always being pinch-hit for, he was getting pulled after 5-6 with 85-100 pitches). Going up against superior AL lineups (and far superior AL East lineups) he just might be a 5 inning guy.

As for the payroll, you should also point out that the only reason the Sox are a clear #2 is that they are in direct competition with the Yankees. The Sox saw their rival and #1 competition in their division doling out $200M to field "an all-star at every position."

I honestly believe that if the Sox were in a different division than NY, or if the Yanks never went nuts on payroll, that they'd be lumped with the 3rd tier teams like the Mets and Angels around $100-110M. Only one team in recent history has decided to greatly outspend all other baseball teams, and that's the 2002+ Yankees (I'm not sure exactly which year it started but it was around then). I see no reason to see why it should be assumed the Sox would have done the same, especially when they started outspending the rest of the pack only after losing to the Yanks in '03.

That's why Sox fans get worked up over the NY payroll, because it directly affects how Boston does business.

 

[Boston Boxer]

Go Roger! Beat those Desperate Housewives! Yeah, baby!

shut up, you make me want to vomit you, you, sox hater

 

[Eugene Chung]

Again, it's not your money is it? Even if they paid $100 million, who cares? They don't have a budget, and even if they did, this deal expires at the end of the year. Had the Sox signed him in June for $18 million, people in here would be demanding they mail the ring to Yawkey Way immediately.

Couldn't agree more. Complaining about money we're not spending is a little ridiculous.

Clemens (again, NL=grain of salt but...) had a sub 2, and then a 2.30 ERA the last two years in that band box known as Minute Maid Park.

Ok, but in his last two seasons in the AL, he was good but not dominant. In '02, he went 13-6 with a 4.35 ERA (.03 under the league average) and 1.31 WHIP; in '03, he went 17-9 with with a 3.91 ERA (.48 under the league average) and 1.21 WHIP. His ERA+ (park adjusted - 100 is an avg pitcher) for the two years was 101 (average pitcher) and 112 (good pitcher). I understand that stats don't provide the whole picture but those stats came when he was 40 and 41 years old.

Mussina was 5th in the Majors in ERA last year at 3.53. Why is it that Mussina, at 38 in ancient to Sox fans, and over the hill, while Schilling, who's 2 years older, and who's ERA last year was half a run higher at 3.97, isn't as big a concern?

Limited sample size for both pitchers. Moose was fantastic last year. A 125 ERA+?!?! Incredible for any age. But he was completely mediocre in '04 and '05 (98 and 101, respectively). As for Schill, he regressed last year and any sane Sox fan had to be concerned coming into this season (especially when he showed up to camp out of shape).

Pettitte is only 34. He's a two time 21 game winner. He's pitched extremely well this season, albeit it's early. Still, he's a proven commodity who's done it in the AL East, and has pitched some huge games in the playoffs. Would Sox fans not take him? Why do some (I stress some) Sox fans look at things so blindly?

Pettitte is one hell of a big game pitcher, but using wins to determine his value isn't very telling. As for Minute Maid Ballpark being a "band box", it's 25th in ballpark adjustment factor during 2007. Yankee Stadium is 7th. Granted, the roles were reversed in '06, but "The Juicebox" hasn't been that much of a hitters park over the past few years (14th in '04 and 23rd in '05).

 

[Real World]

The Red Sox opening day payroll was at $143,026,214. The Yankees opening day payroll was at $189,639,045. Add in Clemens to that (he'll get paid around $18M) and it boosts the payroll to $207,639,045.

The difference between the Red Sox payroll and the Yankees payroll is $64,612,831.

The difference between the Red Sox Payroll and the Athletics payroll is $63,659,274.

So despite being the team with the second highest payroll they are closer in payroll to teams like the Athletics than they are the Yankees. Untill the gap between the teams is a bit closer (and it was before Clemens) than the fact that the Red Sox are second in payroll doesn't mean that they are anywhere close to the Yankees in that regard. So while I am by no means complaining about this and couldn't care less if the Yankees spent $300M a year, anyone complaining about the Yankees spending a lot more than the Red Sox is very much justified.

Sure, it's an advantage, and I I wouldn't try to say otherwise. The difference though is not just $60+ million from the A's, to the Sox, to the Yanks. The difference is staggering to the A's since on a % basis in comparrison to the sox/yanks. That $64 million difference represents 81% of the Oakland payroll versus 43% for the Sox with respect to the Yankees. Again, the Yankees have an obvious advantage, no doubt, but the Redsox have virtually no reason to complain. When was the last time the A's signed a significant FA or even kept one of their own players? The Redsox have become the Yankees junior.

 

[Real World]

On your first point, you are absolutely correct. Clemens was a 5-6 inning pitcher in the NL (and it wasn't always being pinch-hit for, he was getting pulled after 5-6 with 85-100 pitches). Going up against superior AL lineups (and far superior AL East lineups) he just might be a 5 inning guy.

As for the payroll, you should also point out that the only reason the Sox are a clear #2 is that they are in direct competition with the Yankees. The Sox saw their rival and #1 competition in their division doling out $200M to field "an all-star at every position."

I honestly believe that if the Sox were in a different division than NY, or if the Yanks never went nuts on payroll, that they'd be lumped with the 3rd tier teams like the Mets and Angels around $100-110M. Only one team in recent history has decided to greatly outspend all other baseball teams, and that's the 2002+ Yankees (I'm not sure exactly which year it started but it was around then). I see no reason to see why it should be assumed the Sox would have done the same, especially when they started outspending the rest of the pack only after losing to the Yanks in '03.

That's why Sox fans get worked up over the NY payroll, because it directly affects how Boston does business.

That's nonsense. Look at 2001 for example, the Sox and Yanks were a couple of million apart. The Sox have been in the top 5 in payroll for as long as I can remember. With the wild card, the sox are no longer in direct competition with the Yankees. Matter of fact, no team is with respect to their division rivals. Granted, since they signed Giambi after loosing to Florida (2003), the Yankees have gone nuts. What's sad about it asa Yanks fan is that they've actually destroyed the team because of it. The Yankees were a hit and run, steal a base, suicide squeeze team till they signed Giambi and went to all-stars and 3 run homers.

 

[Real World]

Ok, but in his last two seasons in the AL, he was good but not dominant. In '02, he went 13-6 with a 4.35 ERA (.03 under the league average) and 1.31 WHIP; in '03, he went 17-9 with with a 3.91 ERA (.48 under the league average) and 1.21 WHIP. His ERA+ (park adjusted - 100 is an avg pitcher) for the two years was 101 (average pitcher) and 112 (good pitcher). I understand that stats don't provide the whole picture but those stats came when he was 40 and 41 years old.

Totally agree, which is why I don't expect much. Obviously he's better than relying on an Igewa, Karstens, or rag tag minor leaguer, which is why he has to be considered a plus, but I honestly don't expect much more than something near a 4.00 ERA +/-.

Limited sample size for both pitchers. Moose was fantastic last year. A 125 ERA+?!?! Incredible for any age. But he was completely mediocre in '04 and '05 (98 and 101, respectively). As for Schill, he regressed last year and any sane Sox fan had to be concerned coming into this season (especially when he showed up to camp out of shape).

Elbow problems in '04 and '05. My only point was the comparrison to Schill. Some, and I stress some, Sox fans (I'm sure Yankee yahoo's do the reverse) always point negatively to Moose and ignore Schilling. I think they are very comparable players at this stage of their careers.

Pettitte is one hell of a big game pitcher, but using wins to determine his value isn't very telling. As for Minute Maid Ballpark being a "band box", it's 25th in ballpark adjustment factor during 2007. Yankee Stadium is 7th. Granted, the roles were reversed in '06, but "The Juicebox" hasn't been that much of a hitters park over the past few years (14th in '04 and 23rd in '05).

Absolutely, wins, and I hate to say this, are overrated. Pitchers can't control how many runs are scored for them.

 

[Foley]

Sure, it's an advantage, and I I wouldn't try to say otherwise. The difference though is not just $60+ million from the A's, to the Sox, to the Yanks. The difference is staggering to the A's since on a % basis in comparrison to the sox/yanks. That $64 million difference represents 81% of the Oakland payroll versus 43% for the Sox with respect to the Yankees. Again, the Yankees have an obvious advantage, no doubt, but the Redsox have virtually no reason to complain. When was the last time the A's signed a significant FA or even kept one of their own players? The Redsox have become the Yankees junior.

I'm not saying its an advantage, I'm just saying that the Yankees spend a whole lot more than the Red Sox. Just because one spends more than the other doesn't give one the advantage over the other.

Of course $64M is going to mean more to a team in the lower half in terms of payroll than it is to a team in the upper half, but thats not the point. The point is that the Yankees payroll is such a tremendous outlier compared to the rest of baseball, so comparing it to the Red Sox payroll is abserd. $63M is a lot of money. Having that gap between the 2nd highest payroll and the 17th highest payroll doesn't seem to be tremendously unreasonable, but having $64M be the gap between the highest payroll and the 2nd highest payroll is enormous. The gap between the Yankees payroll and the Red Sox payroll is larger than the gap between the Red Sox payroll and the payroll of 15 other teams. If the Red Sox are Yankees junior than so are the Mets, the White Sox, the Mariners, the Tigers, the Orioles, the Giants, and whole lot of other teams.

Again, I'm not complaining about this and don't have a problem with NY shelling out whatever they want, all I'm trying to say is that just because the Yankees and the Red Sox are 1-2 in payroll does not mean their payrolls are close.

 

[TomBrady'sGoat]

That's nonsense. Look at 2001 for example, the Sox and Yanks were a couple of million apart. The Sox have been in the top 5 in payroll for as long as I can remember. With the wild card, the sox are no longer in direct competition with the Yankees. Matter of fact, no team is with respect to their division rivals. Granted, since they signed Giambi after loosing to Florida (2003), the Yankees have gone nuts. What's sad about it asa Yanks fan is that they've actually destroyed the team because of it. The Yankees were a hit and run, steal a base, suicide squeeze team till they signed Giambi and went to all-stars and 3 run homers.

What's nonsense?

Are you saying the Sox aren't spending in an attempt to keep up with the Yankees? The Sox went on their spending spree in '04, sick of finishing 2nd in the division (and still are) and having lost to the Yankess the last two times they made the playoffs. ('99 and '03). They finally overcame you Yankees in the playoffs in large part due to the guys they opened the wallet for, Schilling and Foulke.

They play each other 19 times a year and are in direct competition for the division title. The wildcard is a fallback but you don't want to shoot for it every year because you never know when you'll get a year like 2002, when Oakland won 103 games to win the west and Anaheim won 99. You want a shot at your division.

It sucks for every team in the East. The Sox and Orioles are just lucky because they can do a better job keeping up than the Jays or Rays could ever hope to (thankfully the Orioles are run by someone with no interest in winning, or the East would be horribly rough).

Are you saying that, even if the Yankees didn't step out from the pack, the Sox would have anyway? What supports that view, when the Sox and every other team in baseball were happy to clump together at the top until the Yankees went nuts?

I didn't say the Sox weren't a top payroll team before the Yankees went nuts. What I said was that they were happy in that clump of teams like NYM, Baltimore. etc. around $100M. If the Yankees never broke out and left that group in its dust that's where Boston would still be (remember, they bought the team for $700M or whatever it was and would like to make some of that back).

I'll be the first to admit that the Sox have it better than 30 other teams, in large part thanks to the Sox-Yankees rivalry. They were smart to do their best to keep up with NY and keep the rivalry simmering. I don't see how saying their inflated payroll is a direct result of the Yankees is nonsense, though.

 

[star12]

The Yankees pitching isnt that great. Clemensmay help some lol But really how much? Lets hope they get more 14-2 butt kickings lol