Question for rulebook experts

[Bill B.]

I have a question about a certain scenario that could happen in a game. Say you are on offense and you are on the 6 yard line ready to score. It is 3rd and 4. You can get a first down at the 2. Before the ball is snapped the defense jumps offsides. The ball is placed half way to the goal which is the 3 yard line. My question is: Does the offense get a first down? It is normally a 5 yard penalty but with no automatic first down. Because of the placement on the field the ball only get's moved to the three which is a yard short. However if the ball was anywhere else on the field then a first down would be awarded. Does anyone know the ruling on this?

Some friends and I were having this discussion and no one really knew. I don't think that this scenario is farfetched. I would hate to see how the replacements would handle this.

 

[Armchair Quarterback]

I have a question about a certain scenario that could happen in a game. Say you are on offense and you are on the 6 yard line ready to score. It is 3rd and 4. You can get a first down at the 2. Before the ball is snapped the defense jumps offsides. The ball is placed half way to the goal which is the 3 yard line. My question is: Does the offense get a first down? It is normally a 5 yard penalty but with no automatic first down. Because of the placement on the field the ball only get's moved to the three which is a yard short. However if the ball was anywhere else on the field then a first down would be awarded. Does anyone know the ruling on this?

Some friends and I were having this discussion and no one really knew. I don't think that this scenario is farfetched. I would hate to see how the replacements would handle this.

I would have to believe it would be a 1st down but I can't say for sure.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

If a penalty that does not give an automatic first down on its own moves the ball past the necessary line, it's a first down anyways. If the penalty yardage doesn't move it past the necessary line,, it's not a first down.

So if it's 3rd-and-5 (or less) at (say) midfield and the defense jumps offside, the offense gets a first down.

But in your situation they would not. The necessary line is the 2. The penalty moves the ball from the 6 to the 3. It is now 3rd-and-1.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

In fact, the official rulebook has an explicit example of this.

From the 2012 Rulebook, Rule 14, Section 8, Article 5, Approved Ruling 14.67:

Third-and-goal on B4. The defensive team is offside and A gains 1 yard.
Ruling: A's ball third-and-goal on the B2.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

It's not not a first down, because that penalty does not carry with it the proviso that it's an automatic first down.

Something a little similar came up in a Sound Fx on Bill Belichick when he was talking to an offensive lineman about things to look out for in running a goal line offense.

Paraphrasing Bill: Now in this situtation (goal line offense) watch out for the defenders jumping around. You know, they don't really care if they get called for offsides, do you know why? When the ball is at the 1 yard line, well, what do they have to lose? A half a yard. That's nothing, right? What do you have to lose if they get you to jump and a penalty is called on you? Five yards. So get your head around that. Don't forget it. Situational football.

edit: maybe I got it backwards and he was talking to the defense about a QB trying to draw you offsides when they are backed up at the 1, which is the reverse of the above scenario.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

If a penalty that does not give an automatic first down on its own moves the ball past the necessary line, it's a first down anyways. If the penalty yardage doesn't move it past the necessary line,, it's not a first down.

So if it's 3rd-and-5 (or less) at (say) midfield and the defense jumps offside, the offense gets a first down.

But in your situation they would not. The necessary line is the 2. The penalty moves the ball from the 6 to the 3. It is now 3rd-and-1.

I seem to remember this happening in a game last year. Seems like it should be a first down, I can imagine the replacements refs making a mockery out of a situation like that happening.

 

[signbabybrady]

There is actually a good clip of BB I believe he is talking to Marquise Hill (could have been Jarvis Green) about a similar scenario though this was on the other end of the field and the O was breaking out from the one yard line. BB tries to explain to the player the importance of discipline in this scenario because the O can try and get the D to jump and a false start or delay of game is only half the distance to the goal for them so they have nothing to lose.

 

[TomPatriot]

I have a question about a certain scenario that could happen in a game. Say you are on offense and you are on the 6 yard line ready to score. It is 3rd and 4. You can get a first down at the 2. Before the ball is snapped the defense jumps offsides. The ball is placed half way to the goal which is the 3 yard line. My question is: Does the offense get a first down? It is normally a 5 yard penalty but with no automatic first down. Because of the placement on the field the ball only get's moved to the three which is a yard short. However if the ball was anywhere else on the field then a first down would be awarded. Does anyone know the ruling on this?

Some friends and I were having this discussion and no one really knew. I don't think that this scenario is farfetched. I would hate to see how the replacements would handle this.

You don't get a first down. There is no automatic first down for defensive offsides. The rule is that the down and first down marker remain the same unless a distance penalty places the ball past the first down marker.

In your scenario, the "half the distance" rule moves the ball half the distance to the goal (from the 6 to the 3 yard line). The first down marker is at the two. So on the next play it is 3rd and 1 from the 3.

 

[Bill B.]

In fact, the official rulebook has an explicit example of this.

From the 2012 Rulebook, Rule 14, Section 8, Article 5, Approved Ruling 14.67:

But that rule is for 3rd and goal with no possibility for a first down. It seems like the offense gets screwed if they don't get a first down.

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

No,

Bill Belichick's point in instructing the players was precisely that: the same penalty can carry very different consequences, depending upon where you are on the field.

It may not seem "fair" but it is what it is: situational football.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

But that rule is for 3rd and goal with no possibility for a first down. It seems like the offense gets screwed if they don't get a first down.

If a D keeps taking penalties on and goal situations, a ref can declare a "palpably unfair" act and award a TD.

 

[brdmaverick]

Going into the memory bank on this one but I think this happened to us against the Jets in the 2006 playoff game.