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Discussion in 'Patriots Draft Talk' started by Metaphors, May 14, 2012.

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  1. Metaphors

    Metaphors Rookie

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    I'm wondering if the Pats and Ravens are stepping over each others' draft boards recently. They have had similar needs and it seems like the Pats have been moving to navigate around the Ravens at times. Consider:

    2010 Gronkowski (#42) vs. Dickson (#70)
    2010 Hernandez (#113) vs. Pitta (#114)
    2011 Solder (#17) vs. Jah Reid (#89)
    2011 Jimmy Smith (#27) vs. Dowling (#33)
    2012 Hightower (#25) vs. Upshaw (#35)
    2012 Tavon Wilson (#48) vs. Christian Thompson (#130)

    The Pats seemed to scoop the Ravens on Gronkowski, Hernandez and Hightower (moving ahead of Ravens to get Gronk and Hightower). Solder/Reid and Wilson/Thompson weren't drafted close to each other but were similar athletes drafted into similar situations. Smith/Dowling are different scheme fits but were close enough in the draft I thought they should be mentioned.

    Obviously haven't closed the book on any of these guys, but it goes to show you that the 2012 Pats team (and the Ravens lining up across from them week 3) could very easily look radically different with just a handful of draft day decisions.
  2. kurtinelson

    kurtinelson Rookie

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    #37 Jersey

    I've noticed over the years that Philadelphia has a penchant for taking draft binkies at positions of need for the Patriots.

    2012 Philly - 12 Cox DE/DT, 46 Mychal Kendricks ILB, 59 Curry OLB/DE, 123 Boykin CB
    NE - 21 Jones DE, 25 Hightower LB, 48 Wilson FS, 90 Bequette DE, 224 Denard CB

    2011 Philly - 23 Danny Watkins G
    NE - 17 Solder OT , - Brian Waters FA

    2010 Philly 13 Brandon Graham DE/OLB
    NE 53 Jermaine Cunningham DE/OLB

    2007 Philly 87 Stewart Bradley LB
    NE 180 Justin Rogers

    2006 Philly 71 Chris Gocong DE/LB
    NE 191 Jeremy Mincey DE/OLB
  3. FredFromDartmouth

    FredFromDartmouth Rookie

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    Who did the Ravens take instead of the Patriots picks of Brace, Cunningham, Price and Butler?

    Without reviewing the picks it seems as if the Ravens usually do a better job with the picks they have but BB does a much better job than anyone of moving around in the draft to get extra picks.
  4. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ozzie Newsome trained under Bill Belichick, and his approach to drafting was greatly influenced by BB. However, the Ravens and Pats differ to a considerable degree in some of the things that they prioritize:

    - The Pats seem to value versatilty much more than the Ravens do.
    - The Pats seem to value ST contributions more.
    - The Pats seem more focused on character and leadership qualities.
    - The Ravens seem more focused on toughness and grit.

    I think that some guys - like Dont'a Hightower, and probably Ron Gronkowski - rated very high on both teams' boards. In both cases, the Pats traded up ahead of the Ravens to take a player the Ravens were rumored to be interested in taking. It's less clear to me that the Pats were quite so enamored of guys like Jimmy Smith or Courtney Upshaw.
  5. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    2009: The Ravens traded up from 26 to 23 with the Pats to take OT Michael Oher. He's had mixed results. They took DE/OLB Paul Kruger in the 2nd round. He's been something of a disappointment, and has been unable to crack the starting lineup.

    2010: The Ravens traded back from 25 and took DE/OLB Sergio Kindle at 43. He's been a bust so far. They took Terrance Cody at 58. He's been OK but nothing special so far for them.

    I don't think you can make a case that the Ravens did better than the Pats in the first 2 rounds of those 2 drafts. The Pats got Chung, Vollmer, McCourty and Gronk out of those 2 drafts - of course, they had more picks than the Ravens in the first 2 rounds. Also, the Ravens took Lardarius Webb in the 3rd round in 2009 (#88 overall), and he's turned out to be a stud. But the Pats got Aaron Hernandez in the 4th round (#113 overall) in 2011, and he's a star.

    Both teams have had their hits and misses. And they are among the best drafting teams in the business.
  6. ZoisKing

    ZoisKing Rookie

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    No Jersey Selected

    Its been mentioned before that acquiring more picks in a draft is similar to having more tickets in the lottery. Your chances of winning are better. That kind of thinking illustrates the gamble that is the draft. You do your best, but even then that isn't enough sometimes.

    And sometimes you just get unlucky. My favorite draft pick of all time for the Pats was Andy Katzenmoyer. I nearly passed out from pure excitement. Him being a Buckeye was great, but his ability was impressive. Then he gets hurt, and he's done before he even got a chance to really play in the league.

    You never know.
  7. mayoclinic

    mayoclinic PatsFans.com Supporter PatsFans.com Supporter

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    Ravens Assistant GM Eric DeCosta said last month that of course it is better to have more picks, because even with all of the information and research available the draft is still mostly luck. Kind of a startling admission when you consider all of the prep work and analysis that goes into pickin these guys. And it's still throwing darts at a board, at best.
  8. ZoisKing

    ZoisKing Rookie

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    No Jersey Selected

    I'm sure those guys have to stay medicated, knowing that such high level decision making is so imprecise.

    You have to have a good system in place. Whatever it is, whatever the method may be. The teams that continue to struggle year in and year out (my father's team, the Browns, are a perfect example) just don't have a good infrastructure. To think that they had our hero, Bill, before us and still missed their chance.

    I think of all the opportunities they've wasted. I hate their drafting. I didn't think they needed to move up to get Trent this year, but they were so in love and paranoid that they had to do it. Then they draft a 29 year old quarterback who hasn't exactly garnered the praise that would make that a good pick regardless of age.

    A few years back, I believed that they could have gotten a 1st round pick for Derek Anderson when he had his pro bowl year with Quinn sitting on the bench chomping at the bit. I saw no reason for them to have drafted Quinn and not try to get value for DA while the gettin was good. So they hold on to him, and he spirals downward. *end of rant*
  9. The Gr8est

    The Gr8est Rookie

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    My recollections of Katzenmoyer was that he played well and looked very promising his first year before being derailed by injuries.
  10. The Gr8est

    The Gr8est Rookie

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    Not to try and rub salt in your dad's wounds (hopefully he doesn't read this board), but I agree with you about the Browns' drafting history. They seem to panic and make kneejerk moves.

    I still remember when they gave up their very high #2 pick when they swapped positions with Jacksonville and just moved up one spot in the 1st round. That is when they drafted Kellen Winslow Jr.


    And of course, they did the same thing this year with Minnesota and gave up several picks to move up one spot.
  11. ZoisKing

    ZoisKing Rookie

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    If he'd stayed healthy then he would have gone down as one of the best we'd ever drafted in my opinion. He had excellent size and was built like a brick wall.

    We had some bad luck in those first rounds if I do recall correctly. Robert Edwards flashed big time ability just previous to that and he got injured as well.
  12. ZoisKing

    ZoisKing Rookie

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    No Jersey Selected

    No he doesn't read these boards:)

    I just don't see how they can continue to make the same moves year after year. They lost their team once (Ravens), which has shown to be a good drafting team, and they gave the fans a worse franchise.

    Maybe they just need a name change. The Browns?? They don't even have a logo. They're missing more than that. They need help.
  13. The Scrizz

    The Scrizz Rookie

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    #11 Jersey

    According to Holley's 'War Room' it seems like Carrol ruined Katzenmoyer. He gets thrown out of the 2nd meeting Belichick has with the team and isn't long for the team after that.

    I'm sure the injuries didn't help but the kid was a primadona who never really had to try all that hard. Am I the only one who remembers him not even trying to tackle a guy inside the 5 yard line in Carrol's last season? DOG.
  14. ZoisKing

    ZoisKing Rookie

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    No Jersey Selected

    Funny you mention "War Room", as I'm reading it right now.

    Katzenmoyer wasn't the brightest kid, but he was tremendously talented and a good kid. I think if he'd stayed healthy that BB could have steered him in the right direction.

    Or, maybe BB's complexity of schemes would have ruined him;) In my opinion, if he'd been in the right situation, he'd have been stellar.
  15. Ron Sellers

    Ron Sellers Rookie

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    I had forgotten all about that till you mentioned it. If I recall correctly Katzenmoyer was the person that Sports Illustrated ran a lengthy cover story on (which created quite a buzz at the time) as their example of how schools make a mockery of eligibility requirements, influence professors to give players good grades, take classes that shouldn't receive college credits, etc.
  16. ZoisKing

    ZoisKing Rookie

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    No Jersey Selected

    This might be the article you were mentioning:

    How Ohio State kept linebacker Andy Katzenmoyer eligible - 06.14.99 - SI Vault
  17. State

    State Rookie

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    #70 Jersey

    The DC said he was the most impressive athletic talent at LB he'd even seen. I can't remember his name--yes, I do, it is Steve Sidwell--but he later went on to Seattle. Sidwell has helped out Mike Reiss a lot and is back in the area helping his son coach high school football.

    Benefits of calling plays from press box - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

    Katzenmoyer hurt his back. He apparently flunked a course at OSU designed to be unflunkable for the dumb athletes: AIDS awareness.
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