Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by cstjohn17, Dec 31, 2007.
We'll see about that!
The only advantage the dolts' defense has over the Pats' defense is youth.
That advantage should start being corrected with the '08 draft.
I'm neither a fan of the Patriots or Colts, but if Dungy doesn't deserve to be in the HOF, Belichick doesn't either. Your coach looks good because of Tom Brady. Do you guys remember a guy named Mike Shanahan who won two superbowls with Denver? Where is he now? He sucks because he doesn't have a great QB.
Dungy, however, has been successful even without a HOF QB. In Cleveland Belichick sucked balls for a reason. He didn't have a good QB. Your team got very lucky by acquiring Brady in the sixth round. To me, great are those coaches who make teams competitive even without having a great QB. Parcells comes to mind.
Yeah Dungy has had a real stinker at QB in Indy with Manning..and Belichick is just crap. He didnt mastermind the Giants D coz he was lucky with LT, and all those guys (mainly past players and coaches) who call him a genius that know nothing about the game are fools
Thanks for your input redneck sorry redster.....
This could qualify for dumbest post of the (one day old) year. :bricks:
How many Hall of Fame coaches didn't have Hall of Fame QB's playing for them?
How many coaches in this league would have stuck with Brady in 2001 when Bledsoe was healthy and ready to play?
When has Dungy been successful without a HOF QB? FWIW, despite my dislike for Manning, he is still a shoe in for the HOF.
Parcells had some pretty good QBs. He also had Bill Belichick running his defense.... And the Giants won with defense. Hell, there is already a defensive game plan by Bill Belichick in the HOF from the Giants' days. And after the Giants, Parcells accomplished very little.
Well, Bill Belichick's place in history and the HoF is already secured; his defensive game plan for the Giants defeat of the Bills already preceeding him there. (By the way, that was before Tom Brady played on his team. ) 5 Super Bowls (and counting) will do that as well as a general acknowledgement that he is clearly the best coach of his era and perhaps the best coach of all time.
Now it's not exactly clear to many of us how exactly Tony Dungy fits into this equation. His accomplishments are not yet comparable despite having a QB many people consider superior. The defensive genius of Tony Dungy languished for quite a few years in Indianapolis before finally seeing fruition. Don't get me wrong; Tony Dungy is a great guy, a very good coach and I admire and respect him (unlike many on this board). But the HoF is not about being a nice guy, it's about being the best of the best and Tony Dungy does not yet qualify.
Which is it: does Brady make Belichick or does Belichick make Brady? You can't have it both ways as many would like.
No doubt BB is HOF coach, but again what is Dungy missing on his resume to objectively not make him a hof coach, as well?
The difference between this Colts team and the teams of past is the defensive backfield is playing at a very high level. However, it is all predicated on pressure on the QB, there isn't a DB in the league that can cover indefinitely. Brock and Mathias will have to show up big (both have been dinged). Also, Brady will have to be patient, the Colts give up stuff in front of them and come up and hit. Brady can't force stuff to Moss over the top too much.
The Pats D will miss Colvin's pressure and versatility almost as much as Colts will miss Freeney. I've always thought of Colvin as a big time playmaker. Samuel is one of a hand full of corners that allows the Pats not to double Marvin every play(if he plays and at what level). I would think the Colts will continue to try to get the LBs in coverage against Addai and Clark (or Shockey if they've picked him up, I guess)
If the Pats play nickel again, then can Wilfork and the other tackle (who I actually like even better, but his name escapes me) not allow the 7 yard runs late in the game if they are on the field quite a bit?
It's such a chess game, I hope it happens.
I love how when Brady won his first few Superbowls, he was "lucky because he had Belichick's great defense carrying him". Now that he's a future HoF QB, suddenly the perception is reversed - he singlehandedly won those Superbowls himself and Belichick was just lucky to have him!
Geez, talk about double standards...
He may get there but to me he still has to prove he is a total Head Coach.
He is good on Defense but face it Colts top notch Offense is not his doing.
He was handed it and told to get the defense up to speed. Which he did.
Not saying he couldn't develop a top offense but he didn't do it with
the Bucks and he didn't do it with the Colts ... so it make me wonder.
What is missing from Dungy's resume are multiple Super Bowl wins. What might get him in is being the first black head coach to win one. I don't think Dungy has proven himself to be HOF. What sets him apart? His Tampa 2 is a modification of the old Steelers defense (a good variation but not that inovative). He's been successful but not more than other coaches. I think his path to the HOF is through multiple Super Bowl wins. What makes him HOF in people's eyes?
You've mentioned some, the not innovative Tampa two, he gets credit for. He has a number of head coaches who were under him that he has mentored, he has as many regular season wins as BB (127) with quite a few less losses (81 v 65). He has been in the playoffs like 9 years straight, which I think only a handful of coaches have. There's more, I don't want to get into a subjective importance of stats contest.
Remember this isn't a BB v. Dungy conversation, both are allowed to be inducted. I just respectfully disagree that Dungy having not built an offense from the ground up and only having won, one superbowl is not enough in the HOF voters mind to put him in.
If it is the case, who would you have in the Hall as far as coaches, if you had to win multiple superbowls.
I won't take this any farther; too far off topic.
GREAT point on the headsets, and not a small point. I may steal this tidbit later. Remember too, that the first game saw all those phantom calls against the Patriots, leading to the most penalty yards in their history, and they still won. Don't forget also about the crowd noise being pumped in.
Finally, Freeny will be out for this game.
I'll be posting this same thing in a few weeks.
So, under this theory, Brian Billick is a HOF coach....
No offense, but this post is short sited, and in many areas...wrong. It's just soo wrong. When BB was winning Super Bowls, his teams were decimated, absolutely decimated with injuries. His gameplanning was incredible. His ability to hide deficiencies is legendary. No doubt Tom Brady is so important to what has gone on here. No doubt. But, BB's ability to take away the best of what a team does is second to none. His ability to get his team to focus solely on the game in hand, continues to amaze me.
His eye for talent is tremendous. His insisting that players play multi-positions is genius. He is so incredibly smart in working the play clock, utilizing time outs, and just knowing what is going on.
Brady is the best ever, and that can't hurt. But the fact that you can't see how much BB has learned since his days in Cleveland, and how great he has become is apparent. Oh, and Phil Simms was a great QB.
Someone help me out here....
If I say "you have to have a brain to be a brain surgeon" that doesn't mean that someone can conclude that "Brittany Spears is brain surgeon".
It's been too long since Philosophy class to remember what kind of faulty reasoning this is labeled as, but no, all I'm saying is to get into the HOF does not have to be precluded by winning multiple superbowls.
Brian Billick won Super Bowl
Brian Billick oversaw what was perhaps the greatest defense in NFL history
It's all subjective here, but BB has 3 SBs as a head coach and more under Parcells. Pimping the Tampa 2, which is Kiffin's scheme, is a bit misleading, is all. I personally agree with you in your thinking that Dungy will get into the HOF. The difference between us is that I'm not sure he deserves it. I'm of the opinion that there were likely dozens of coaches who could have gotten at least 1 Super Bowl out of that team during the course of Dungy's tenure, and Chucky getting that SB win after stepping in down in Tampa makes reinforces that opinion in my mind.
I believe Brady had his 4th lowest yardage and 5th or 6th lowest rating against Indy. 2 of his 8 interceptions came in that game.
I am not underestimating that defense, although I hope our big line and Kyle Brady can run over them.
Now that is an interesting argument, of course no way to say for sure. I do see your point here though.
I often think that Jack Del Rio stands in the way of Jax taking that next step.
Too, along those lines, an Ohio State fan called in and said he was going to miss Lloyd Carr at Michigan, sorry if you don't follow college football, but its the same thought.
The thing is you can never really say. And I will agree it's all about winning it all, in how your are perceived. Guys who say its not, are either are being nice or haven't won it, imo.
Another side note, this time last year there was a growing faction of Colts fans starting to rumble about Dungy maybe being done here, if they would have gotten bounced by KC, instead of winning it all, I don't think we'd be having anything close to this conversation.
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