Patriots type 3-4 OLB

[WesWelker83]

I do apologize, I missed this query in prior readings:

I refer you back to my quote from which you based your query. Please note I was discussing the potential for BB drafting a "one trick pony" who had demonstrated sufficient talent as an edge rusher to warrant consideration (a Lawrence Taylor redux as it were).

Kerrigan does indeed have any number of warts in that regard, but he reportedly has a good work ethic which would allow him to develop, so the uncertainty remains his athleticism should NE attempt to use him as one of their OLBs. We can hope to see how he performs in LB drills at the Combine. My personal assessment is he'd be a better value for NE with the #33 pick; Von Miller on the other hand I'd be more inclined to consider with the #17, as he's demonstrated some ability to play in space.

Hey Box, could you evalute how these guys fit into our scheme:

Robert Quinn UNC
Aldon Smith Mizzu
Ryan Kerrigan Purdue
Justin Houston Georgia
Brooks Reed Arizona
KJ Wright Miss St
Jabaal Sheard Pitt
Jeremy Beal Oklahoma
Markus White FSU
Mark Herzlich BC

Thanks

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I know you are high on Watt as a DE. I'm starting to get warm to him. Great film and seems to have the motor of guy that never quits and always being in the right place at the right time. Who are you liking as far as LBs? Do you see Kerrigan as being able to make the conversion to LB? Thoughts?

Obviously a more difficult area to assess, as noted above I like Von Miller, but he could be gone by #17, perhaps even the top 10. I'm not done evaluating Ryan Kerrigan, as also noted above I currently project his value as early second.

Looking at the NFL Draft Scout rankings:
-- Brooks Reed - I'd say late second like Cunningham is his upper limit. A nice hustle guy who I believe can play in space.
-- Pernell McPhee - in the third, I also see him as another Cunningham type. He could also be bulked up and play 3-4 DE (which he did for MS State).
-- Bruce Miller - very late Day Three or a UDFA. The kid gets rapped for struggling to shed blocks, but he was also a primary target for blockers and the one thing I liked about him is how much better he made everybody else look around him.
-- Christian Ballard - in the third round, slim him down some, his biggest drawback is he doesn't find the ball in trash very well, but perhaps playing OLB where his athleticism can have more impact he might work out okay. (I absolutely do not want him playing inside on the DL as a DE or DT, he gets lost and is too easily blocked.)
-- Brandon Bair - thinking outside the box, this kid reminds me of Big Willie; he doesn't get many sacks, but he creates pressure either in the pocket or by getting those long arms up into the passing lane and he has surprisingly quick hands for knocking down the ball. He could also be bulked up and play DE. Early Day Three.
-- Ryan Winterswyk - Another Day Three kid.
-- Karl Klug - my binky with no clear position. Watching him play DT for Iowa is like watching Stephen Neal blocking for NE, the kid goes toe to toe with guys like John Moffit and wins the leverage and strength battle. Moffit is the only OL I saw who was competitive in one on one blocking with Karl. At 273 he was winning battles with the likes of Moffit, slim him down to 255 and you've got a pigskin seeking missile in trash who will set the edge and get after the passer, playing in reverse is more problematical, but I'd love to see NE give him a chance. Late Day Three/UDFA.
-- Josh McNary - Army kid, sack master, too small ... and I'd love to see BB sign him as a UDFA and stash him on Reserve/Military for a couple years. Despite being 6' 230 I'd put a steak dinner on him to surprise people given the chance and coaching.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

hey box, could you evalute how these guys fit into our scheme:

Robert quinn unc -- haven't seen him play. :confused2:
Aldon smith mizzu -- i don't have him with a first round grade and i'm not comfortable projecting him to ne olb.
ryan kerrigan purdue -- still pending a combine display of athleticism to play in reverse, currently early second.
justin houston georgia -- late second at best, lots of questions so i'd probably pass.
brooks reed arizona -- round peg, round hole, late second. :rocker:
Kj wright miss st -- nice 4-3 olb.
jabaal sheard pitt -- his reverse doesn't excite me, but he can set the edge and rush the passer, late third if he's there, some off-field concerns to ponder.
jeremy beal oklahoma -- i'm not sold.
markus white fsu -- watching some fsu games, i never noticed him and i'm a trench watcher.
mark herzlich bc -- 4-3 olb who still hasn't got his game back.

thanks

I hate when the computer conspiracy kills all my Capitalization.

 

[Patriot Missile]

Obviously a more difficult area to assess, as noted above I like Von Miller, but he could be gone by #17, perhaps even the top 10. I'm not done evaluating Ryan Kerrigan, as also noted above I currently project his value as early second.

Looking at the NFL Draft Scout rankings:
-- Brooks Reed - I'd say late second like Cunningham is his upper limit. A nice hustle guy who I believe can play in space.
-- Pernell McPhee - in the third, I also see him as another Cunningham type. He could also be bulked up and play 3-4 DE (which he did for MS State).
-- Bruce Miller - very late Day Three or a UDFA. The kid gets rapped for struggling to shed blocks, but he was also a primary target for blockers and the one thing I liked about him is how much better he made everybody else look around him.
-- Christian Ballard - in the third round, slim him down some, his biggest drawback is he doesn't find the ball in trash very well, but perhaps playing OLB where his athleticism can have more impact he might work out okay. (I absolutely do not want him playing inside on the DL as a DE or DT, he gets lost and is too easily blocked.)
-- Brandon Bair - thinking outside the box, this kid reminds me of Big Willie; he doesn't get many sacks, but he creates pressure either in the pocket or by getting those long arms up into the passing lane and he has surprisingly quick hands for knocking down the ball. He could also be bulked up and play DE. Early Day Three.
-- Ryan Winterswyk - Another Day Three kid.
-- Karl Klug - my binky with no clear position. Watching him play DT for Iowa is like watching Stephen Neal blocking for NE, the kid goes toe to toe with guys like John Moffit and wins the leverage and strength battle. Moffit is the only OL I saw who was competitive in one on one blocking with Karl. At 273 he was winning battles with the likes of Moffit, slim him down to 255 and you've got a pigskin seeking missile in trash who will set the edge and get after the passer, playing in reverse is more problematical, but I'd love to see NE give him a chance. Late Day Three/UDFA.
-- Josh McNary - Army kid, sack master, too small ... and I'd love to see BB sign him as a UDFA and stash him on Reserve/Military for a couple years. Despite being 6' 230 I'd put a steak dinner on him to surprise people given the chance and coaching.

Good info. How High are you on Von Miller? It actually kind of suprises me that you even consider Miller with his size. 237? He gets huge props for being the best pass rusher in this draft. Is here other things you see in his game that you like?

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Good info. How High are you on Von Miller? It actually kind of suprises me that you even consider Miller with his size. 237? He gets huge props for being the best pass rusher in this draft. Is here other things you see in his game that you like?

Rosie Colvin played for NE at 250, Miller can play as a rookie at 245+ and reach 250 in due time without losing any of his explosiveness. He's demonstrated an ability to play in reverse, he has two areas of concern - his ability to set the edge and his ability to recognize plays. Both are a result of how he was used in college, he was asked to rush the passer and when he was working against a run blocker he was taught the wrong shoulder leaving the CB/S/OLB as the outside contain in their scheme. As far as recognition goes, he's a little like Dwight Freeney, coach says run at the QB every play (that's part of that wrong shoulder thing), he's not expected to read the block or play.

Coaching, film work, and time should fix those issues, the decisions to be made revolve around how fast BB expects him to produce in the defense and whether the interview process indicates a good grasp of football fundamentals and an ability to learn new concepts quickly. I'm not worried about his maturity and work ethic, it's all going to come down to BB feeling comfortable that he can pick up the coaching and apply it.

 

[MaineMan]

Obviously a more difficult area to assess, as noted above I like Von Miller, but he could be gone by #17, perhaps even the top 10. I'm not done evaluating Ryan Kerrigan, as also noted above I currently project his value as early second.

Looking at the NFL Draft Scout rankings:
-- Brooks Reed - I'd say late second like Cunningham is his upper limit. A nice hustle guy who I believe can play in space.
-- Pernell McPhee - in the third, I also see him as another Cunningham type. He could also be bulked up and play 3-4 DE (which he did for MS State).
-- Bruce Miller - very late Day Three or a UDFA. The kid gets rapped for struggling to shed blocks, but he was also a primary target for blockers and the one thing I liked about him is how much better he made everybody else look around him.
-- Christian Ballard - in the third round, slim him down some, his biggest drawback is he doesn't find the ball in trash very well, but perhaps playing OLB where his athleticism can have more impact he might work out okay. (I absolutely do not want him playing inside on the DL as a DE or DT, he gets lost and is too easily blocked.)
-- Brandon Bair - thinking outside the box, this kid reminds me of Big Willie; he doesn't get many sacks, but he creates pressure either in the pocket or by getting those long arms up into the passing lane and he has surprisingly quick hands for knocking down the ball. He could also be bulked up and play DE. Early Day Three.
-- Ryan Winterswyk - Another Day Three kid.
-- Karl Klug - my binky with no clear position. Watching him play DT for Iowa is like watching Stephen Neal blocking for NE, the kid goes toe to toe with guys like John Moffit and wins the leverage and strength battle. Moffit is the only OL I saw who was competitive in one on one blocking with Karl. At 273 he was winning battles with the likes of Moffit, slim him down to 255 and you've got a pigskin seeking missile in trash who will set the edge and get after the passer, playing in reverse is more problematical, but I'd love to see NE give him a chance. Late Day Three/UDFA.
-- Josh McNary - Army kid, sack master, too small ... and I'd love to see BB sign him as a UDFA and stash him on Reserve/Military for a couple years. Despite being 6' 230 I'd put a steak dinner on him to surprise people given the chance and coaching.

Great notes! Thanks!

 

[dryheat44]

I find Bair to be an intriguing option also.

Obviously a more difficult area to assess, as noted above I like Von Miller, but he could be gone by #17, perhaps even the top 10. I'm not done evaluating Ryan Kerrigan, as also noted above I currently project his value as early second.

Looking at the NFL Draft Scout rankings:
-- Brooks Reed - I'd say late second like Cunningham is his upper limit. A nice hustle guy who I believe can play in space.
-- Pernell McPhee - in the third, I also see him as another Cunningham type. He could also be bulked up and play 3-4 DE (which he did for MS State).
-- Bruce Miller - very late Day Three or a UDFA. The kid gets rapped for struggling to shed blocks, but he was also a primary target for blockers and the one thing I liked about him is how much better he made everybody else look around him.
-- Christian Ballard - in the third round, slim him down some, his biggest drawback is he doesn't find the ball in trash very well, but perhaps playing OLB where his athleticism can have more impact he might work out okay. (I absolutely do not want him playing inside on the DL as a DE or DT, he gets lost and is too easily blocked.)
-- Brandon Bair - thinking outside the box, this kid reminds me of Big Willie; he doesn't get many sacks, but he creates pressure either in the pocket or by getting those long arms up into the passing lane and he has surprisingly quick hands for knocking down the ball. He could also be bulked up and play DE. Early Day Three.
-- Ryan Winterswyk - Another Day Three kid.
-- Karl Klug - my binky with no clear position. Watching him play DT for Iowa is like watching Stephen Neal blocking for NE, the kid goes toe to toe with guys like John Moffit and wins the leverage and strength battle. Moffit is the only OL I saw who was competitive in one on one blocking with Karl. At 273 he was winning battles with the likes of Moffit, slim him down to 255 and you've got a pigskin seeking missile in trash who will set the edge and get after the passer, playing in reverse is more problematical, but I'd love to see NE give him a chance. Late Day Three/UDFA.
-- Josh McNary - Army kid, sack master, too small ... and I'd love to see BB sign him as a UDFA and stash him on Reserve/Military for a couple years. Despite being 6' 230 I'd put a steak dinner on him to surprise people given the chance and coaching.

 

[Metaphors]

If you are looking for the Pats to take a rush LB in the 1st round, the next week or so should give some clues. Look for:

- Position: Players with a "DL" on their shirt, not a "LB"

- Length: >6'4" with arms >33"...needed for disrupting passing lanes, manipulating blockers and stripping from behind the pocket

- Strength: >250 lbs with bench press more than 25 reps...needed for anchoring the edge, disengaging from blocks and collapsing the pocket

- Quickness: <4.65 40, <1.7 10 yd split and <7.0 3 cone...needed to beat blockers to the edge with the lean to get around them and for backside pursuit

- Explosion: 36+" vert and 10+' broad jump...needed for establishing the LOS and getting into a blockers pads before they can set their feet

This is the ideal and Ware is the prototype. Combine this physical makeup with meaning college snaps (if board favorite Barwin showed more functional strength in games he would probably be a Patriot today) and you have your 1st round Patriots type 3-4 OLB.

 

[WesWelker83]

If you are looking for the Pats to take a rush LB in the 1st round, the next week or so should give some clues. Look for:

- Position: Players with a "DL" on their shirt, not a "LB"

- Length: >6'4" with arms >33"...needed for disrupting passing lanes, manipulating blockers and stripping from behind the pocket

- Strength: >250 lbs with bench press more than 25 reps...needed for anchoring the edge, disengaging from blocks and collapsing the pocket

- Quickness: <4.65 40, <1.7 10 yd split and <7.0 3 cone...needed to beat blockers to the edge with the lean to get around them and for backside pursuit

- Explosion: 36+" vert and 10+' broad jump...needed for establishing the LOS and getting into a blockers pads before they can set their feet

This is the ideal and Ware is the prototype. Combine this physical makeup with meaning college snaps (if board favorite Barwin showed more functional strength in games he would probably be a Patriot today) and you have your 1st round Patriots type 3-4 OLB.

Did Cunningham fit all these measurements and test out this well at the combine?

 

[Metaphors]

Did Cunningham fit all these measurements and test out this well at the combine?

Gosh no. And he didn't go in the first round. But it is interesting to compare:

Position: DL...Check
Length: 6034, 33 3/4 arms...Pretty close
Strength: 266 (don't have bench numbers)...Check (probably)
Quickness: 4.89, 1.60 (don't have 3 cone)...Fail, though the 10yd split is nice
Explosion: 35" vert and 9'10" broad...Fail but not by too much

Cunningham was solid but unspectacular at UF, but apparently he showed enough to Belichick to warrant a late 2nd. While he isn't a guy that dramatically ups the pass rush productivity, Cunningham looks to be a solid piece of the puzzle.

 

[MaineMan]

Did Cunningham fit all these measurements and test out this well at the combine?

Took a little digging:

Cunningham didn't participate in the Combine or the regular Gators Pro Day while recovering from surgery for a torn labrum.

April 7th 2010 workout:

6033/266

9'10.5" broad
35" vert
1.57 10-yd

Pulled his quad during his 40 (1st degree strain), finished in 4.92 and didn't perform cone or shuttle after that. AFAIK, he wasn't yet prepared for the bench test (shoulder).

 

[WesWelker83]

Took a little digging:

Cunningham didn't participate in the Combine or the regular Gators Pro Day while recovering from surgery for a torn labrum.

April 7th 2010 workout:

6033/266

9'10.5" broad
35" vert
1.57 10-yd

Pulled his quad during his 40 (1st degree strain), finished in 4.92 and didn't perform cone or shuttle after that. AFAIK, he wasn't yet prepared for the bench test (shoulder).

I gathered some information about Cunningham's Pro Day at Florida. I forgot he didn't partcipate in the combine last year due to injury. Anyways here are his measureables and testing results.

6-3 3/8
266 pounds
33 3/4 inch arms
10 3/8 inch hands

Bench Press: 25 reps
40 Time: 4.66
10 Yard: 1.58
20 Yard: 2.71
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.31
Thre Cone: 7.21
Vertical: 31 inch
Broad Jump: 9 ft 2in

PATRIOTS PROFILE: Draft choice Jermaine Cunningham - Brockton, MA - The Enterprise

 

[MaineMan]

I gathered some information about Cunningham's Pro Day at Florida. I forgot he didn't partcipate in the combine last year due to injury. Anyways here are his measureables and testing results.

6-3 3/8
266 pounds
33 3/4 inch arms
10 3/8 inch hands

Bench Press: 25 reps
40 Time: 4.66
10 Yard: 1.58
20 Yard: 2.71
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.31
Thre Cone: 7.21
Vertical: 31 inch
Broad Jump: 9 ft 2in

PATRIOTS PROFILE: Draft choice Jermaine Cunningham - Brockton, MA - The Enterprise

Thanks for filling out the stats that I couldn't find. Those 10-yd splits are pretty impressive. BTW - did you find anywhere in the linked article when those "Campus Agility Tests" took place? The article is dated 4/23/10, after Cunningham's workout.

 

[Off The Grid]

I believe that Jermaine Cunningham ~ and Brandon Spikes (Dear God: I almost called him "Charlie"!! ) ~ are going to EXPLODE in 2011.

Let us get an High Caliber Grizzly AND an High Caliber Flanker...and this Defense will become a FORCE.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Cunningham's workout numbers were not a significant factor in drafting him, the clincher as I recall for the Florida run in the recent draft was BB observing a series of practices while visiting with Urban Meyer. Meyer has been trying to implement NE practice principals into his program and the three draftees all caught BB's eye for the effort they put in at practice.

The interview process was key for Devin McCourty with his ability to discourse on he entire defense's individual and team roles; Mayo was also one who presented well in interviews. Coach Scarnecchia has built his O-line by finding players who interview and demonstrate flexibility and quick adjustment in All-Star games, seeming to prefer the Shrine Game with Mankins, Vollmer, and I think Koppen and Kaczur all participating. Mankins was moved to Guard demonstrating versatility and quick adjustments, Vollmer was flipping OT ...

The Combine/Pro-Day numbers are nice for us to argue as we await the draft, but it appears the workouts, interviews, and campus visitations we don't get to see is where the meat of the decisions are made ... with a healthy dose of game tape.

 

[Metaphors]

The Combine/Pro-Day numbers are nice for us to argue as we await the draft, but it appears the workouts, interviews, and campus visitations we don't get to see is where the meat of the decisions are made ... with a healthy dose of game tape.

Agree that Belichick doesn't draft players based primarily on measurables at the combine. However, those measurables are useful for us to guess at the players Belichick won't draft...early at least.

If McCourty timed poorly at the combine and pro day, he likely isn't drafted in round 1. Same with DE's if they are too light, NT's if they are too tall, LB's if they aren't strong enough, OT's if their arms aren't long enough, etc.

As for the subject of this thread, I don't believe there have been many 1st round OLB candidates that meet baseline measurables. And those that reach this level are gone by the time the Pats pick. I really believe that the Pats just don't compromise on 1st round picks and that is why they haven't selected a 1st round OLB yet.

I'll be interested to see which of the DE's make the grade at the combine this week. There are more potential conversion projects than I can remember in the past.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

I gathered some information about Cunningham's Pro Day at Florida. I forgot he didn't partcipate in the combine last year due to injury. Anyways here are his measureables and testing results.

6-3 3/8
266 pounds
33 3/4 inch arms
10 3/8 inch hands

Bench Press: 25 reps
40 Time: 4.66
10 Yard: 1.58
20 Yard: 2.71
20 Yard Shuttle: 4.31
Thre Cone: 7.21
Vertical: 31 inch
Broad Jump: 9 ft 2in

PATRIOTS PROFILE: Draft choice Jermaine Cunningham - Brockton, MA - The Enterprise

Is the 40 time correct? I seem to remember him being a 4.9 guy. 4.66 is off the chains!!!!!!

 

[Sciz]

He pulled his quad or something like that during his 40, hence the great start and poor finish.

 

[jaydeep]

Mason Foster, University of Washington to the list....3.5 year captain, phenomenal production (improved every year), experience @ MIKE, WILL, SAM spots

 

[Sciz]

Mason Foster, University of Washington to the list....3.5 year captain, phenomenal production (improved every year), experience @ MIKE, WILL, SAM spots

Not a 3-4 OLB