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OT: Parcells only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

Discussion in 'PatsFans.com - Patriots Fan Forum' started by tombonneau, Dec 27, 2007.

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  1. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    Was just reading an AP article talking about Tuna attending the Fish practice and they mentioned this as an aside.

    Am I the only one who thinks this is a staggeringly low number of Division Titles for a guy who almost coached 20 years?

    For frame of reference, BB just won his 5th DT in a row.
  2. TheGodInAGreyHoodie

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    BP is not about make good teams great, he is about make crappy teams good.
  3. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress Rookie

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    Parcells rebuilt 4 franchises from the dregs into playoff contenders (granted GYoung was a major part of G-men resurgence in the early 80s). There were many years of transition, and once the team's were on the right track he left to do it again. Parcells was a great coach and the ability to alter the course of 4, and now possibly 5 franchises for the better is unprecedented and HOF worthy.
  4. QuiGon

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    Bill Parcells is the most overrated coach of all time... In 7 years of coaching without Bill Belichick, he has never won a single playoff game. He is 55-57 and 0-3 in the playoffs. It's quite obvious who the true genius was behind any success Bill Parcells ever had.
  5. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    I understand him taking over "bad" teams deflates his division title numbers, but I still think the apotheosis of Parcells has gone overboard.

    There are lots of coaches who have taken over bad teams and made them good. And they've done more than get them to the SB and lose.

    Again, I agree Parcells is an excellent coach and is able to maximize output from this roster, but he is not the dominant, otherworldly coach the media makes him out to be.
  6. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    With one of those losses coming against Belichick. :)
  7. betterthanthealternative

    betterthanthealternative Rookie

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    His coaching resume is largely irrelevant here. His talent selection resume is largely irrelevant here. He is hiring people to do those two jobs. That's the talent that's called for here - hiring and leading, not doing.

    There is very little evidence to suggest that he will be any good at this at all, and some evidence that he can't help but meddle in other people's jobs.

    Time will tell.
  8. ShrewBeer

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    he will pick a decent gm and coach, and he will draft well. this will give miami a chance to compete for the division title.
    his division title record means nothing, because he takes crap teams and makes them division contenders, and then bails. therefore he is not going to win many divisions. he will at least get some decent players onto the team and make it so they are not complete losers
  9. PatsFanSince74

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    as i recall, we had a similar debate about parcells a few months ago. i had taken the view that parcells without belichick was mediocre, but was put in my place by ponyex and others, who made the case over several posts that parcells is second to none in his ability to turnaround and build teams. they are still right.

    in order to judge parcells, you have to look at the whole course of his work with a team. by that standard, he was a truly great coach and belongs in the HOF no matter what happens in Miami.
  10. PonyExpress

    PonyExpress Rookie

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    BB is probably the greatest football coach in history, or at least in the conversation with P. Brown, Shula, Halas, Lombardi, Noll, Walsh. We don't have to diminish Parcells in order to elevate BB. After all, Parcells was smart enough to realize how good BB was and let him work his magic. That's part of being a great administrator, and he deserves credit for that. Parcells was also a great developer of coaching talent. Romeo, Coughlin, Weis, Payton, BB among others cut their coaching teeth under his guidance. Parcells was unlikeable, irascible, an egomaniac and often cruel man who knew how to win football games, and has maybe the best eye for talent ever. He is not overrated at all. He is a HOF coach.
  11. tombonneau

    tombonneau Rookie

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    These Parcells vs. BB debates always remind me of this great quote from an old Curran Projo article. I think it sums it up rather well.

  12. Brooklyn Nick

    Brooklyn Nick Banned

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    Parcells undertook a lot of total reclamation projects, teams who were very very far off from competing. All 4 spots he built teams that had the ability to contend (as Dallas does now, he built the team). But he only won the rings with the Giants

    Hes a great coach. That stat is more indicative of the fact that when he started at all 4 stops the teams completely sucked

    A lot of coaching is the talent. Listen, Belichick is a great coach, Id even argue the greatest of all time. But refresh my memory on what he won as a head coach in 6 years without Brady again?
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2007
  13. tuckeverlasting

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    by looking at this miami team, parcells certainly isn't afraid of a challenge.
  14. PatsWorldChamps

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    AGREED! BP has always gone into situations where the team was on the rebound, with or without him... how he gets credit for anything at all is beyond my imagination. Most. overrated. coach. ever.
  15. PatsWorldChamps

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    pretty safe bet that next year's team will have a better record, even if you coached them, AND ran the front office.
  16. PatsWorldChamps

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    what did brady win without BB as a head coach again?
  17. PatsWorldChamps

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    you are 100% crazy. and it has nothing to do with BB. no way in h3ll does BP belong in the HOF, he is not even average... he was working a deal with another team, WHILE his team was in town for a superbowl.. do you think even ONE of those players who worked all that year have even an OUNCE of respect for him? ANYONE can take a 1-15, 2-14, whatever, team, and make them better... your mother could... you cant do worse. he is great at putting himself in a situation where he cant lose (and he IS great at that). that is all. if the phins win 3 games for each of the next 3 years, some morons will say BP improved them.
  18. Flying Fungi

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    In deference to PWC, I will state that I 100% agree with you. My only caveat is that I would include Coach Landry on that short list (and there may be one or two others).

    Bill Parcells, love him or hate him, has left one of the largest footprints on the modern NFL. The fact that he is consistently a highly sought after candidate by many franchises should tell you about the professional consensus of the man's talents. If you are a Patriots fan from prior to Bob Kraft, you have no choice but to respect the work he did in NE regardless of the outcome of 1996.
  19. PatsWickedPissah

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    Parcells...
    Proven gameday coach...probably irrelevant to the Miami job
    Great motivator...unless you're TO
    Excellent judge and selector of asst coaches...key to the Miami job
    Good judge of foorball talent...relevant to the Miami job

    Parcells' new job is not coaching and only indirectly (final say & FA deals) choosing players. His job is to hire a HC and a personnell and cap guy who are competent. Miami has not drafted or coached well this century. I think he was an excellent choice and will turn around this franchise. He will need to pick either older guys without the need to run the whole show themselves or younger upcoming but yet unproven talents willing to have the Tuner looking over their shoulders giving edicts and taking the ultimate credit. That's why a Pioli to Miami ain't gonna happen, but a Josh McD could happen.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2007
  20. PonyExpress

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    I never said Parcells was a good man, a nice man or an honest man. He was a belligerent two faced jerk. But he was a great football coach.
  21. AndyJohnson

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    Belichick took over a team every bit as bad as the ones Tuna did, and won a div title in his second year, then went on to win 5 of 6. Thats 6 in 8 years.

    Parcells made bad teams better. But his success lessened at each stop.
    With the Giants he won 2 SBs.
    With the Pats he got to one.
    With the Jets he never got to a SB.
    With Dallas he never won a playoff game.

    I agree he is very overrated, but he has the perfect personality to have the media in awe of him.
    I think a bigger part of his legacy should be walking away from the Giants to go the NE. The abandoning of the Pats while preparing for the SB. Stepping down from the Jet job after a disappointing season, becoming their GM and bailiing on that, then leaving Dallas before completing the job.

    Parcells has lived high on his 2 rings with the Giants, but unless respectability is exciting to you he hasn't done much since.
  22. mgteich

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    Parcells is who he is. Since he in a non-patriot, he is worthless and worse than our weakest coach. That is the philosophy of many here regarding all non-patriots. Most posters believe that the patriots are better if everyone else is aweful. This attitude never made sense to me.

    Those who are not patriot fans rate Parcells as one the greatest football coaches in the game. And yes, someone who should have been moved up to GM and/or VP of Player Operations years ago. Parcells might still be here if the Krafts understood the game at the time that Parcells was guiding our team to the Super Bowl. They didn't and greatly limited the say of Parcells over personnel decisions. The rest is history. The Krafts replaced Parcells and all was fine. Well, except for the three years that the team went downhill until the Krafts decided to bring in Belichick. The dynasty could have started in 1996. We were in the Super Bowl and we were on our way up.
  23. AndyJohnson

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    I dont see anyone trashing Parcells and saying anything resembling your whine line.
    Parcells is what he is, as you say. His record speaks for itself. In the history of the NFL he absolutely is among the best ever. But that doesn't mean he is without warts. If he had never coached the Giants, and his career was what came after, he wouldn't be anywhere near the discussion of all-time greats. That is why he gets overrated. He built some franchises up to respectability, and everyone expected once he did that he would turn them into Champions. That never happened. His record beyond the Giants years is far from great.
    His history of bailing on teams is part of what he is.
    To say that the dynasty could have started in 1996 is totally misguided. To blame Kraft when Parcells negotiated his way out instead of focussing on the SB, is inane. Just so we are clear; after leaving here, he has won nothing, so I find it ludicrous to say he would have had the same success with him here as BB, since Parcells has never had that much success anywhere.
    Just for the record, Parcells spoken reason for leaving "buying the groceries" is ironic. He went to the Jets, had that power, then walked away from it, and went to Dallas without that power.
    At the best, Parcells overestimated the value of 'buying the groceries' and the worst the guy who was scheming behind the owners back in violation of league rules during SB week, was less than forthright about the reasons.
  24. Flying Fungi

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    but the Krafts DID learn from the Parcells experience--and THAT made all the difference when Belichick came to town...

    but I don't agree that the dynasty could have started in 1996...the pieces weren't there...Bledsoe was a very good QB early in his career, but he was certainly not capable of being the centerpiece of a dynasty...
  25. MoLewisrocks

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    Bullschit, and Kraft will tell you why. Parcells was a disingenuous liar and credit grabber with a penchant for pointing the finger at someone else when his plan wasn't working out according to script. He left a cap mess in his wake here, and another in NY when he abandoned the JETS after losing his little worker bee. Neither team performed well after he left because they had real issues, some of which were of his making. He senses that and bails before the schit hits the fan...

    He ultimately made NO decisions in Dallas as that is Jerry's perogative. Jerry hired him to make a splash and u the Q rating for America's team. If he got to pick his brain and he scared some of the kids straight and pushed some veteran buttons and attracted some young genius coaches to the organization in the process, that was the bonus. The QB who ultimately turned things around in Dallas was not Tuna's pick - Jerry selected him because HE had a gut instinct about Romo. Jerry brought in TO against Bill's wishes. Bill pleaded for Drewpie and got him against Jerry's better judgement. Ultimately that cost him his job, although he was burnt out on it and looking for his customary break and change anyway. He'll get whatever credit there is to grab for Dallas' performance for the forseeable future anyway...and had it gone the other way Jerry would have been the goat. Win-Win.

    Now in Miami, as likely would have been the case in Atlanta though on a smaller scale and stage, he almost can't fail. There is nowhere to go but up. He'll hang for a couple of seasons until he gets bored or senses there is little more to be gained in staying. Then the next guy who comes along will either be the idiot who screwed up the grand turnaround plan or the beneficiary of a Parcells foundation. Win-Win.

    He can't coach in this league any longer because his brain can't keep up with the younger generation of genius coaches and his personality is a mismatch for the overhyped millionaire generation of athletes he's forced to work with. He's a dinosaur from the 80's. A retread with a hi profile Q rating. But that is all Miami needs coming off 3 disasterous decisions in a decade of ownership. To stop the freefall and start climbing back to respectability. They aren't going to win a division in this decade no matter what they do, so the goal now is to work their way back to a point where they will be in striking range as the next decade approaches. 4-12, 6-10, 9-7 - and if they make the playoffs as a WC in year 4 (when he will have moved on as he always does a year early) he will get ALL the credit. If they slide back down the hill, it won't be on his watch. What this owner really wants is for Bill to locate and install a functional football ops that can continue to function long after he's moved on. And that hope is rooted not in his success but that of his former protoges.

    It never ceases to amaze me that people could have lived through the last decade as Pat's fans and not "get IT". That you actually believe a dynasty could have been started here in 1996 is proof positive that you remain thoroughly delusional where Drew and Tuna are concerned. Tuna did his job here in picking them up off the mat and elevating their profile. He also knew they weren't going to win a championship or continue to improve with Drew at the helm and looming cap issues. He bought low and sold hi like the astute salesman that he is. The grocery line was mostly a cover, as his post Patriots resume underscores.
  26. mgteich

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    Much of this would make more sense if Parcells was replaced by Belichick as patriot coach. It didn't happen that way.

    My personal opinion is that had pioli been brought in, and had the same player and contract improvement been made from the time of the Super Bowl onward, that we would have done well under Parcells and whoever succeeded him. It was bringing in Carrol and Grieir that put the team on a downward spin, not Parcells. Parcells and Beldsoe had us in the Super Bowl, with a an improving team (or one that could have been improving).

    The Krafts did not know a lot about how to manage a football team when they made their own judgements over player situations, instead of listening to the coach. The Krafts thought that we needed a wde receiver more than anything. Parcells was an ********* in the way he left. Belichick wasn't much better in the way he left the jets. The fact is that the Krafts watched the team go downward until they brought in Belichick.
  27. MoLewisrocks

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    What makes you think Pioli could have been brought in at that juncture...you need to read up on "Scotty" since your personal opinion doesn't seem to have a clue where he emerged from let alone when or how. He was a kid BB took a serious shine to when he was the Giants DC while Scott was still in college, and whom he tapped for a gopher spot with all the growth potential he could handle on his Cleveland staff in 1993 after Scott's first two years of small college experience, who went to the Ravens for a year (1996) after the Browns evaporated only to be brought in as a pro personnel director for the JETS at Belichick's behest after Parcells bolted with staff to the JETS. So he wasn't quite ready to be the Patriots psuedo GM under Parcells back in 1997 and neither Parcells or Kraft had any clue who Pioli was prior to 1997 and 2000, respectively...

    Nice try though mg. You really struggle to give the evil injury list manipulator any credit, don't you? LOL
  28. AndyJohnson

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    Your revisionary history is curious.
    You are saying PARCELLS BUILT THE TEAM, but he left because he wasnt allowed to build the team, and if he stayed and was allowed to build the team he would have done well.
    But he never did build the team, at least from your perspective. The Krafts had a GM and they gave him power over personell. That is why Parcells left. So if he left because he didnt have personell authority, how does he get credit for building the team?
    The personell decisons were made by Grier, DURING AND AFTER Parcells. So the same decision making that you thought built a winner is the one that you are saying wrecked it.

    It crazy to think that the Krafts were making personell decisions.
  29. AndyJohnson

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    Your argument would make more sense if Parcells had ever accomplished what you are assuming would have.
    What were his excuses in New York? Did the owner make him draft WRs?
    What were his excuses in Dallas? Was it Jerry Jones fault that he couldnt win a playoff game in 5 years, and Wade Phillips has had a better season than Tuna ever had?

    I don't get the assumption that Parcells could do what BB has done, when BB has actually done it and Parcells, in NUMEROUS opportuities really hasn't come close.
  30. Real World

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    Re: OT: Parcelss only won 5 Division Titles in 19 seasons

    How old are you? If you're older than 30 you should remember how pathetic this franchise had been till Parcells got here. Give him his due respect. As for looking for another job while with another team, I guess the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, when you consider BB's coming here.
    Last edited: Dec 28, 2007
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