Official Pats/Colts Postgame thread

[Real American Hero]

I deleted from my DVR as soon as I got to the end but didn't Brady throw his pick on a drive that surely otherwise would have resulted in a FG worst case? Nobody is calling for his head. Yeah the fumble sucked but it really shouldn't have been pivotal to the result.

 

[Satchboogie3]

I deleted from my DVR as soon as I got to the end but didn't Brady throw his pick on a drive that surely otherwise would have resulted in a FG worst case? Nobody is calling for his head. Yeah the fumble sucked but it really shouldn't have been pivotal to the result.

Brady threw for over 350 yards, 3 TDs and only 1 INT. I don't think you can blame him for anything. This loss is on the defense. We had 17 point lead with 5 minutes to play. The defense absolutely has to be able to make stops. I mean, we won the time of possession battle by over 5 minutes, so it wasn't like the defense was on the field for an unreasonable amount of time. Sure, it would have ended the game if the Pats could have converted the 3rd down with 2:50 left to play, but with close to 500 yards offense on the day and 34 points, you absolutely can't place any blame on them.

 

[ivanvamp]

Re: Official Pats/Colts Postgame thread (gotta vent a little)

A few thoughts.....

1. I'm *SO* glad this was just a regular season game instead of a playoff game. Even if the Pats had won, it would have been very difficult to catch the Colts for the top seed in the playoffs. Indy's schedule is pretty weak the rest of the way (heck, their entire schedule has been pretty weak), and NE still has to travel to NO.

2. The Pats, in my view, were absolutely the better team last night. They rushed the ball better and they passed the ball better. Through three quarters they held the Colts to just 14 points. The Pats easily could have had more, but Brady threw that ill-advised pass that got picked in the end zone and then Maroney fumbled at the goal line. Then, just like what happened in 2006 during the playoffs, the defense completely fell apart.

3. The two biggest calls in the game by the refs both went the Colts' way (surprise, surprise). The first was with 3:03 left...the Colts had the ball on the NE 44, and Peyton throws deep for Collie. The Pats' defender (Butler, I think) was turned looking for the ball and Collie slows up just a little and there's a slight bump....ball falls incomplete but they throw the flag for pass interference. First, the defender has the right to the ball as well. Second, he was turned to face the ball. Third, the receiver didn't do what WR normally do - get up and complain for a flag. Never should have been thrown, and that was a huge play in the game. The second was the 4th down pass to Faulk. Yeah, it looked like he juggled it for a split second, but it was clear that he secured it at or beyond the 30. Very close, but the replay confirmed it. Unfortunately, the Pats had burned his remaining time-outs, and the play happened at 2:08, so it couldn't be reviewed. The refs got the call wrong but there was nothing the Pats could do about that. That sucked. And that's just crappy that it happened at 2:08 instead of 1:58.

4. My two main criticisms of that 4th down play were this. First, if they knew they were going to go for it on 4th down anyway, they should have ran the football on 3rd down. Even a QB sneak would have gotten a yard, and the percentages of making it on 4th and 1 are much higher than they are on 4th and 2. Plus, it would have made Indy burn a timeout to stop the clock. Also, who knows, they might have gotten the first down on a QB sneak. So it didn't even appear that the coaching staff was planning on going for it until the 4th down arrived...hence, calling another timeout which ultimately killed them. Second, on the 4th down play, Welker was coming across the middle (see: NFL Videos: Colts 35, Patriots 34 fast forward to about the 3:28 mark of the video)...and Welker was pretty open. Watch....Welker is lined up in the left slot, and as he makes his cut over the middle, the LB gets there late, and Welker has about a 2-yard window, and Brady doesn't throw it to him. Very odd that the guy Brady throws to the most is open and Brady doesn't even look at him.

5. I'm sick and tired of watching other teams generate a pass rush while the Pats can't. How many times in the 4th quarter, when you know the Colts are throwing, did they get heat on Manning? Not often at all. Drives me insane. (more on this later)

6. Even after the Colts got the ball back after that ill-fated 4th down play, I think the Pats missed an opportunity. On 1st and 10, with about 1:20 to go, Addai got the ball on the handoff and went 13 yards down to the Pats' 1. Willhite tackled him at the 1, but what he should have done was make sure (by pushing him in, whatever) that Addai scored. The Pats would have had the ball with 1:20 to go down just one. I think Brady would have had a very real shot at moving the team from the 20 down to the Colts' 35 (just 45 yards) with 1:20 available, don't you?

7. Last thing, and I'll reiterate my first point. I'm glad this was a regular season game, and therefore wasn't *that* important in the grand scheme of things. There's no doubt that this team can win in Indy. Here's their last few games in Indy:

2006 - were up 21-3, lose 38-34 (playoffs)
2007 - win 24-20
2008 - lose 18-15
2009 - lose 35-34

I mean, there's no way anyone can tell me that the Colts own the Pats in Indy. All three of those losses the Pats should have won. 2006, up big, Pats should have nailed that one, and there was a *TERRIBLE* pass interference call against Ellis Hobbs in the end zone against Reggie Wayne...plus, Reche Caldwell dropped a wide open TD pass late in the game that would have iced it. 2007 they won. 2008 they were without Tom Brady, and, down 18-15 with about 5 minutes to play, the Pats are driving. A terrible play by Dave Thomas - an unnecessary roughness penalty for blocking after the whistle (shock...another call goes against the Pats in Indy!) kills the drive deep into Indy territory, Pats lose. And here in 2009...well, you know the story.

The Pats won't fear coming here one little bit if they meet in the playoffs. But they have to figure out how to bury the Colts and keep them buried. Look at the Colts' three scoring drives in the 4th quarter:

- 5 plays, 79 yds, 2:04 elapsed
- 6 plays, 79 yds, 1:49 elapsed
- 4 plays, 29 yds, 1:47 elapsed

So they scored three touchdowns on drives covering 183 yards in a grand total of 5 minutes, 40 seconds. That's absolutely unconscionable as a defense, especially considering the fact that (a) they had held Indy to just 204 yards and 14 points until then, and (b) they had a big lead to work with so they could just pin their ears back and rush the heck out of the passer. In that 4th quarter, the Colts ran 15 plays...just 4 of them were runs (and the last two, frankly, were simply there to take time off the clock to keep the Pats from getting it back with too much time left). So you *know* they're passing...and they never really got close to Peyton.

I've heard people say that the Pats' D was "gassed" at the end, which is why they couldn't generate any pressure. I'm like, what? The Colts' offense was only on the field for, what, just over 5 minutes in the fourth quarter? And in-between the Colts' first and second TD of the 4th quarter, the Pats had two possessions sandwiching a Colts turnover. The Colts scored with 12:14 left in the quarter, ran one offensive play (Peyton INT) at the 7:54 mark after the Pats had the ball for 4:12, and then they started their 2nd TD drive with 4:12 to go. That's essentially an 8-minute *game-time* break...which, with TV commercials, etc., was more like about a 15-20 minute break. Then the Colts scored their 2nd TD in just 1:49....I mean, how can these professional athletes that didn't actually expend much energy up til then and had just gotten basically a 20 minute rest, have been *gassed*? Makes absolutely no sense. They just got beat. No pressure on the QB, a terrible call by the refs, and there you go.

Now, I will say this in closing. I wouldn't want to be the New York Jets this week. I think the Pats are going to come out and beat the living daylights out of them. They're going to score and blitz and score and blitz and score and blitz and score and score and score and score and beat the freaking pulp out of the Jets. First, they need the win. Second, they have a lot of payback from week 2. Third, they will have a serious case of the "gotta take my frustration out on somebody" going on. Not that I'll feel bad for the Jets...I hate that team. I want to see the Patriots win 77-0 and never let up, not for a single moment. I want the papers the next day to read how classless Belichick is and how much they were running up the score. I want them to bury the Jets in the 1st quarter and then spend the rest of the game piling more dirt on them. I'm sure that's what the Pats' players all want at this point as well. They won't be "down"....between the crowd, the need to vent their frustration, and considering the importance of the game, they're going to absolutely crush the Jets.

That is all.

 

[Lansdowne]

Being completely and totally honest here...

We've seen this script before (hint: AFCCG). The Colts offense did whatever the hell they wanted against the Patriots defense late in the game. Belichick knew this and wanted to go for it on 4th down and two yards to try to prevent the Colts from getting the ball back.

Faulk got hosed on the spot of the ball, I don't care what anyone says. That should have been a first down. I, for one, liked Belichick's decision: it was ballsy, even though it didn't turn out the way we would have wanted it to. You punt the ball, guess what, the Colts are going no-huddle, eating up more clock, and getting the ball to that spot anyway.

This showed the team's lack of faith in its defense to close out the deal. And you know what? Dating back to that fateful AFCCG of the '06 season, we can see why. With the game on the line, I am always hopeful, but no longer am I confident. At least not against the Colts, who have now got us in five of the last six meetings.

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

Being completely and totally honest here...

We've seen this script before (hint: AFCCG). The Colts offense did whatever the hell they wanted against the Patriots defense late in the game. Belichick knew this and wanted to go for it on 4th down and two yards to try to prevent the Colts from getting the ball back.

Faulk got hosed on the spot of the ball, I don't care what anyone says. That should have been a first down. I, for one, liked Belichick's decision: it was ballsy, even though it didn't turn out the way we would have wanted it to. You punt the ball, guess what, the Colts are going no-huddle, eating up more clock, and getting the ball to that spot anyway.

This showed the team's lack of faith in its defense to close out the deal. And you know what? Dating back to that fateful AFCCG of the '06 season, we can see why. With the game on the line, I am always hopeful, but no longer am I confident. At least not against the Colts, who have now got us in five of the last six meetings.

I agree, not just the Colts and SB42 but even in the 3 Super Bowls we won, the defense gave up the late TD. They just can't be trusted late game when the other team has 4 downs to work with, even when our defense was at its best in '03. BB will get blasted for the decision but I stand by it. Just wish the play selection was better on that series.

About the Faulk spot, on the replay it did look like he juggled the ball so the call would be correct. I'd have to look at it again though. The real crime was the PI on Butler. Calls like that have no place in the game and strictly for ratings IMO. That's the only way this could've been a game if not for that the Colts are still trying to score that TD inside of 2 minutes.

 

[FootballFan85]

A note on the spot on that play. I'm not a Pats fan, and I understand how frustrating that must be.

That being said. I personally think he got it, but not by a lot. He DID juggle the ball. Watch any replay you want and you can clearly see him juggling it. If he holds that ball clean, the Pats win that game. But he didn't. The second he juggles it, it becomes a judgement call for the refs on where he gained full possession. They made their call, and from the video, it looks wrong, but only slightly.

If it was a first down, which it probably was, it wasn't by much. So while yes, the spot probably was bad, Faulk absolutely HAS to hold that ball cleanly. His juggle opened up the opportunity for a bad spot.

If you're going to call a risky play like that, you need to get that first down and get it good. Throwing the ball a sliver over the first down line isn't good enough. You have no time outs, you can't challenge. You need to make that 1st by a yard, not a few inches.

Botched call? Probably. The TV views were far from optimal and maybe someone on the field had a better view. I'd say it probably was a 1st though by a bit, but not nearly enough to blame the refs.

The Pats dug their own grave on that play all the way through from the play call, to not getting the ball deep enough past the marker, to Faulk not being able to pull it in cleanly.

The Colts didn't deserve to win that game, a lot of things went against that Pats, but that spot was a very marginal call one way or the other. If it had've been called a first, Colts fans would be screaming the exact same things being said here. I don't think anyone should be blaming the loss on that.

 

[DaBruinz]

Again the refs did not lose the game, anyone who says it does not know football.. But it does go to show


The Pats have no faith in Maroney or the Defense... Which is why we can more than likley talk draft in a few weeks... We will make the playoffs, but this is not a super bowl team..

People like yourself are blind to the fact that the refs gave the game to the Colts. The bogus pass interference call on Butler and the poor spot on the last drive sure as hell did cost the Pats the game. Those two calls were directly responsible for 14 points for the Colts. Thinking otherwise shows that YOU are the one who doesn't know football..

 

[FootballFan85]

People like yourself are blind to the fact that the refs gave the game to the Colts. The bogus pass interference call on Butler and the poor spot on the last drive sure as hell did cost the Pats the game. Those two calls were directly responsible for 14 points for the Colts. Thinking otherwise shows that YOU are the one who doesn't know football..

Actually neither of those plays directly resulted in 14 points? After the PI call, the D still couldve held the Colts to 3. And read my post above on the spot, and even then, again, the D still had the opportunity to stop the Colts from getting the TD.

Remember when everyone called Ray Lewis a whining baby for crying after the game? Losers blame the refs. Winners look at what they can do better for next time and do it.

 

[DaBruinz]

When this team gave the chance for the defense, which played its best football on the road in a long time, or the running game , they had no faith. ... The red zone play calls, the maroney fumble , led to the 4th and 2 ... This team is not going far.. if the coach thinks if Brady and Moss cant win me games, then nothing else will..

You do realize that the defense was exhausted, right? It wasn't a lack of FAITH. It was realizing that the defense was tired because of the lack of defensive line depth and the lack of depth at LB. Green being out, then losing Ty warren right before the game, losing both TBC and Ninkovich during the game. Putting them back out there puts more players at risk for injury. Especially when Manning just walked down the field on the previous series. Granted, it was thanks to the referee's help, but it was still time that the defense was on the field.

BTW, I love how people blast Maroney for the fumble. It's the guy's first fumble since his rookie year.

 

[DaBruinz]

Belief in Maroney and they run the ball in certain situations, would not be in that situation where you have to make that decsion.. the team and this coach does not believe in him..

You have absolutely NO CLUE about this. Its just your half-arsed assumption. You don't know if Brady is audibling out of the running game because of the defense he sees. Stop with your BS assumptions already. Talk about no credibility.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Yeah, the refs should have gone 10 yards in 3 downs instead of 4. The refs should have bottled up Addai after the Pats failed on the 4th down conversion. The refs should have covered the ball up better when Maroney fumbled. The refs should have played sufficient defense so we could have won after scoring 34 points on offense.

I very rarely see a game where the officiating is "the refs giving the game" to somebody. Usually officiating has a marginal effect. When a game is decided by a thin margin, obviously the marginal effect's importance is magnified. On the 4th down pass I saw all the angles too, and none of them cried out "look! He objectively without a doubt got that first down!" I just don't think you can conclusively shout that from the rooftops about that play in any objective way.

We need to just freaking accept that oh no, we lost to the colts. Big freaking deal. Maybe we shouldn't have... maybe the 4th and 2 from your own 30 call was a bad one. Maybe not. But it's the call BB made, and we did not get the yardage.

As to whether we "should" have won that game, no we shouldn't have. They scored more points. The team that scores more points wins.

Man up. The team you like loses sometimes.

PFnV

 

[DaBruinz]

I hate Laurence Maroney.

We have 3rd and 2 and I think we can infer BB approached the down knowing that if we didn't pick it up he was going to go for it on fourth barring a penalty/sack/loss of yards. He knows this before the play and still isn't confident enough to call Maroney's # to at least pick up a yard on third and make the defense respect the sneak. Don't get me started on the fumble... If we have a legitimate #1 back (or even a healthy Taylor or Morris), this is an entirely different game.

**** you, Laurence.

I'm fine with BB's call to go for it. Our D was worn ragged and in prime position to get abused. Lame call on Faulk from the officials hurt us there. Our D didn't have the stones to put up pressure late in the game and we got smoked.

You clearly missed the last 12:14 of the 4th quarter. During the Pats last 3 series, they tried to run the ball, but couldn't get more than 2 yards on any running play. In fact, Faulk was stuff for a 2 yard loss..

Maroney is a legitimate #1 RB. He's not top tier, but he's good when used and the O-line actually does a good job of blocking..

The Pats defense was TIRED because of the lack of players for the D-line and for the LBers to rotate in properly.

Speaking of which, anyone know how many snaps Brace saw last night?

 

[DaBruinz]

Maroney had the fumble, but otherwise ran hard. BB blew it by not running on 3rd and 2. Why not give it BJGE as the upback - you're likely to at least gain a yd on a FB dive against that D.

We don't know if Brady audibled out of that or not.. It was a 3 WR, 1TE set on that pass to Welker.. If Brady saw something we didn't, then he audibles to a pass.. It was a great play by Powers to almost intercept that pass.

 

[DaBruinz]

What would a yard do? we needed two, the pass play was designed to go a yard past the first down marker then turn, everything would have just been pushed back a yard.

A yard would set the Pats up for an easy QB sneak by Brady..

 

[PATSYLICIOUS]

BTW we need a KR

 

[BradyManny]

I'll make this short:

- That was just depressing. WTF.

- I can't remember a game we've dominated so much on both sides that we ended up losing.

- I don't want to sound like Tommy Heinsohn, but what the hell is the deal with the refs handing the Colts games? The 06 AFCCG, the 07 victory, and this last game were the most brutally one-sidedly ref'd games I've seen in the NFL. I expect refs to make errors, but errors only favoring one side? Very rare. We can chalk it up to the home crowd factor I guess.

- Anyone questioning the 4th & 2 call needs to STFU. If the ref makes the right call there, the game is over. It was a ballsy call that should have won us the game. They made the call, Brady made the pass, Faulk made the catch, the ref blew the call, and now everyone is mad at Bill Belichick - its bullcrap.

- I thought our defense was different this year, I didn't think it was the same defense we've had the last 3 years that have coughed it up down the stretch (AFCCG in 06, SB in 07, Jets game in 08). Sadly, so far, it looks like I was mistaken. Fortunately, that was just regular season and hopefully we get TBC back soon.

 

[DaBruinz]

Actually neither of those plays directly resulted in 14 points? After the PI call, the D still couldve held the Colts to 3. And read my post above on the spot, and even then, again, the D still had the opportunity to stop the Colts from getting the TD.

Remember when everyone called Ray Lewis a whining baby for crying after the game? Losers blame the refs. Winners look at what they can do better for next time and do it.

The PI gave the Colts the ball on the Patriots 13 yard line. So, instead of being 2nd and 10 from the 44, it was 1st and 10 from the 13.. Now, Manning and the Colts are one of the best teams inside the Red Zone.. Manning, with 3 chances from the 13 late in the game is more than likely going to make it when a defense is tired..

People called Ray Lewis a whining baby because the refs actually were making the correct calls on the Ravens. In fact, the refs could have called a half dozen MORE on the Ravens and didn't. The Ravens played a very undisciplined game that night. In this case, the Refs blew 2 calls. I guess you don't understand the difference.

Also, Faulk "juggled" it for less than a millisecond" and had CLEAR possession before getting hit by the Colts player.

 

[FootballFan85]

I'll lay this out for you DaBruinz just so you can see how blindered you are by your homerism.

NFL Videos: Patriots gamble and lose

There's the video for you to reference.

Here's a description of the possession rule:

On passing plays, the NFL rule of possession states that the receiver must have possession of the ball with both feet down in bounds before a catch can be ruled legal. The rule further describes possession as the player having clear control of the football before going out of bounds. Receivers are ruled not to have possession of the ball legally if they are bobbling the football before going out of bounds.

Mmmk? So you can't be bobbling the ball, and you have to have BOTH feet down before it's a catch. So if you bobble the ball and then control it with one foot off the ground, it's still not a possession until you have BOTH feet down.

Now here's a post from a Colts board poster explaining why they're certain it was the RIGHT call (imagine that, they see the play different than you do!):

1) Faulk gets two hands on the ball with two feet down past the first down
2) Both hands come off the ball, with one foot in the air and one on the ground, with Melvin Bullitt wrapped around him
3) Faulk has lost 'forward progress' and must now re-establish possession by getting 2 feet down or maintaining possession through hitting the ground.
4) He re-establishes possession by landing with the ball, but is a half-yard short.

Read, and watch the video. Watch it over and over. Look at Faulk's feet. They're not planted, they're tapping around. You can see it clearly from the front view. He DOES bobble the ball and IF he does get two feet down WITH possession before he's brought down, it's basically a toe tap at best and a VERY close call..

Now I'm not saying it wasn't a first down. As I've said before in another thread, I personally think it was, but probably just by inches when you factor in that the bobble eliminates his foreward progress until he regains full possession.

Was it the wrong call? Maybe. Maybe not, but one thing is for certain, absolutely NOTHING about it was clear. Not even remotely close to clear. If you want to call that a clear possession and clear first down, then you my friend are too much of a homer for anyone to argue with logcially.

Can you really not admit that it was a razor close call and that the Pats put themselves in that situation by selecting that play and with no time outs should they need one?

 

[DaBruinz]

Yeah, the refs should have gone 10 yards in 3 downs instead of 4. The refs should have bottled up Addai after the Pats failed on the 4th down conversion. The refs should have covered the ball up better when Maroney fumbled. The refs should have played sufficient defense so we could have won after scoring 34 points on offense.

I very rarely see a game where the officiating is "the refs giving the game" to somebody. Usually officiating has a marginal effect. When a game is decided by a thin margin, obviously the marginal effect's importance is magnified. On the 4th down pass I saw all the angles too, and none of them cried out "look! He objectively without a doubt got that first down!" I just don't think you can conclusively shout that from the rooftops about that play in any objective way.

Sorry, but you didn't see them clearly because they showed the angle of the front side of Faulk making the catch and he clearly had possession before being hit. Knowing that he was over the 30 yard line prior to being hit, it should have been a first down. So, yes, I can "objectively" say he got the first down. Especially since the official that claimed that Faulk juggled the ball was BEHIND Faulk and had no clear view of the ball.

We need to just freaking accept that oh no, we lost to the colts. Big freaking deal. Maybe we shouldn't have... maybe the 4th and 2 from your own 30 call was a bad one. Maybe not. But it's the call BB made, and we did not get the yardage.

As to whether we "should" have won that game, no we shouldn't have. They scored more points. The team that scores more points wins.

Man up. The team you like loses sometimes.

PFnV

I have no issue when they lose because they just play poorly. However, when the refs make a BOGUS PI call on Butler and then short the Pats on the 1st down spot, that's not the Pats losing. That's the refs giving the game to Manning.

 

[brady et al fan]

My observations/rants:

1) The refs blew that PI call but I've long since come to expect that against Manning and is the biggest reason I do NOT look forward to games against Indy. I hate when refs have anything to do with the outcome of the game but they usually do when Manning is involved.

2) This is sadly the same result we've seen from this defense since '06. They simply can't get off the field against a big game QB. Absolutely no pressure on Manning for the entire 4th quarter. I sort of understand BB's decision to go for it since I had the feeling Manning was going to lead them to a score no matter where they started from.

3) With the game on the line, its pitiful that we could not get a single first down against a depleted Colts defense to close this one out. I put that on the OL more than anything. Could not open holes to run and couldn't keep the pressure off of Brady.

4) Mathis just owned us. We need an answer for him going forward and this was similar to the SB where the Giants could leave the pressure to the front 4 only and we had no answer.

There's just too much blame to go around on this one. When we were up 24-7 I just thought we had this in the bag. I do not see a different outcome if we meet these guys in the playoffs. This is just a pattern that began in the SB 2 years ago and continues to this day. Too many big plays by the other guys and not enough of them by us.