Meta-mock 1.0

[supafly]

They ARE all 5 words!!!

Truncated Haiku Form???

OTG--I am missing exactly what you are trying to say here.

"They ARE all 5 words?" Not sure what that means.

My comment to him was that I liked his effort in coming up with witty, cohesive statements in 5 words, as that likely was harder than it looks. Everything was pretty well written for being wrapped up in 5 words.

Are you saying that you agree? Sorry for the unintended ignorance.

 

[patfanken]

Yes the offensive line was mostly fine during 2010. However, offensive line is a position of need in 2011 and especially in 2012. The Mankins situation doesn't sit well, and the team does not have a starting left tackle in 2011. Koppen is aging, and Connolly isn't a starter. Protecting the team's $20-million star QB should always be a top priority.

Front seven edge players are also a position of need in 2011 and in future years. However, the value and talent of players at these positions dramatically decrease from picks 1-10 to everything else. In addition, players at these positions historically have a higher bust-rate than offensive linemen. The drop-off between a top ten offensive linemen versus a late first offensive linemen isn't as great, and the value is still there.

A 2-gap DE that consistently draws the attention of two blockers immensely helps the pass rush. A player like this, in my opinion, provides a better foundation upon building a pass rush than a situational pass rusher (a la Seymour versus Clay Matthews). A player like this also allows for more variety and unpredictability in blitz schemes and coverage disguises. Wilkerson, Watt, and Jordan are players that potentially fit this mold. Selecting a DE at #17 and an OLB at #33 addresses the 'pass-rush' deficiencies in two different ways.

Miller is a top ten pick. Quinn is a top ten pick. Smith may fall to 17, but many scouts and 'experts' feel that he should gain weight and play as a 43 DE, or become a situational pass rusher. A situational pass rusher is not worth the economic constraint tied with a first round pick. In my opinion, the 'Willie McGinest' type of 34 OLB will not be found in the first round of this draft, and neither will a Richard Seymour (maybe Dareus). I do think Watt, Wilkerson, and Jordan have the potential to have a career similar to Ty Warren.

Mike Reiss has written a few times in his blog that drafting a situational pass rusher in round 1 should be considered because of the percentage of sub-packages the Patriots have ran in the past two years. I disagree. I believe this is a consequence of not having ideal 2-gap DEs or 34 OLBs that can play on all three downs. The Patriots defense, and most other 34 schemes, are predicated on versatility. The Patriots have lacked players with the adequate versatility, and as a consequence, they are in a sub-package 50+% of the time. I don't think BB wants to do this.

You make your points well Andy, especially the one about how the DE impacts the effectiveness of the rush, even if he doesn't get there himself. HOWEVER.....

I think you have to factor in the era we are playing in. This is the flag football era and passing is king. 60% completion rates are the MINIMUM requirements for just an AVERAGE QB in the NFL..The way the rules are set up it is virtually impossible to stop the passing game with pure coverage. The ONLY real way to stop a good passing attack is thru pressure.

The Pats D was HORRIBLE at it in 2010 and their D stats reflected it. So my rebuttal to your well thought out points is that in TODAY'S pass happy NFL, picking a "pass rush" specialist that "early" pick of a situational pass rusher DOES create enough value to justify the pick,

I think BB's past history of NOT doing this was valid, as the league was THEN. But this is now and if anything BB has proven that he can be flexible in adjusting to the changes in the league.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

You make your points well Andy, especially the one about how the DE impacts the effectiveness of the rush, even if he doesn't get there himself. HOWEVER.....

I think you have to factor in the era we are playing in. This is the flag football era and passing is king. 60% completion rates are the MINIMUM requirements for just an AVERAGE QB in the NFL..The way the rules are set up it is virtually impossible to stop the passing game with pure coverage. The ONLY real way to stop a good passing attack is thru pressure.

The Pats D was HORRIBLE at it in 2010 and their D stats reflected it. So my rebuttal to your well thought out points is that in TODAY'S pass happy NFL, picking a "pass rush" specialist that "early" pick of a situational pass rusher DOES create enough value to justify the pick,

I think BB's past history of NOT doing this was valid, as the league was THEN. But this is now and if anything BB has proven that he can be flexible in adjusting to the changes in the league.

Seems to me that the Pats lost their playoff game in part because the Jets got pressure on Brady and we did not get pressure on Sanchez.

I think we need D Line help and a pure third down pass rusher to get the front 7 up to SB quality.

 

[patfanken]

''

I think we need D Line help and a pure third down pass rusher to get the front 7 up to SB quality.

those are clearly the 2 areas of need: a pass rushing DLman and and a pass rush specialist off the edge. The problem is that EVERYONE is looking for the same people. The problem is that MANY draftees come into the league having the potential to be good pass rushers. Unfortunately very few of them end up reaching that potential. They are that rare commodity that emakes all the rest end up being over valued coming into the league. But that doesn't mean shouldn't keep trying, or in BB's case "give it a shot at the top of the draft", because it clearly isn't working at the middle or bottom rounds'

Maybe the way to go is the proven situational rusher who is a FA. A guy who you have film on and can better determine whether he's a fit or not. Is there a guy like that out there in FA who you wouldn't have to pay top dollar to?????????????????????

I think we underestimated the loss of Mike Wright early in the season. With 5 sacks in 7 games he provided the Pats with a DL rush that was missing after he was gone.

BTW- that brings up another thought that probably should be on the general board, but I'll bring it up here to start -

Given the short drops and quick releases of the today's QBs, should we really be looking for that "edge rusher" OR is the key to stopping today's passing game, be centered on finding the guy who can get penetration up the MIDDLE? Just a thought

 

[Metaphors]

I think he does not go DE unless someone falls into his lap like a Jordan or Watt at #33 which won't happen. If Bailey from Miami slid to #74, he might be hard to pass up. He has DE starters in Wright and Warren. Stroud was picked up as insurance. I think Brace is the most "Seymouresque" as hopefully coming into his own and winning that spot. Then you have Pryor, Deadrick and Cohen. VW played DE as well. You backup NT is Love. You have 8 DE's that are more squatty and thick and not built for pass rush, but why pick up Stroud if you are going to go DE? I thought he would but I am changing that tune.

I actually agree with you even though I picked Jordan. I don't see Jordan as a traditional 3-4 DE, but rather as someone that can be plugged in all over the place depending on situation and matchup:

4-3 DE in sub packages (traditionally an OLB role)
4-3 DT in sub packages (Mike Wright role)
3-4 OLB (obviously dropping into zone fairly infrequently)
3-4 DE against smaller/quicker OLs
Even ILB in short yardage/goal line or the "wandering LB" formation that was curiously absent last year

He might not even be considered a "starter" but still get more snaps than anyone else on the DL. As I said, if Belichick doesn't see him as capable in these roles, then I doubt he gets picked at #17.

#17 Kerrigan-Versatile OLB or can put his hand on the ground.

I like Kerrigan but he doesn't seem to be athletic enough to justify #17. If he is stout enough against the run, he looks to be a combination of Cunningham and Eric Moore. Not a bad thing, just not optimal at #17.

#33 Reed OLB- See #17. You can't block both of them. This could be fun.

Dude averaged about half a sack per game in a passing conference, so someone figured out how to block him. So many of these rush linebacker types rely on speed rushes outside. Without an effective counter move, you just get escorted neatly around the pocket with the QB never noticing you are even there. NFL tackles are too big and too technically sound. 10 sacks and 300 other plays where you are effectively MIA is not what Belichick wants.

#60 Ellis Kendrick NT. This would be a typical BB WTF pick.He expands the value of Wilfork. Watch some tape on this kid.He is quick at 340lbs.

He seems too tall for NT. If he is athletic enough for DE, he just takes a spot from Stroud or Brace. Pick #60 is still in the deep part of this draft class so there is value to be had. Not sure he is the best value for the Pats there.

4th Round- Greg Romeus DE/OLB-6'5" 270LBS. Would have bee a top ten in 2011 but for injuries. Steal of the Draft. This is like the Brandon Tate pick.

Would like to see this scenario but I fear Romeus will be gone by this point. Belichick does have a lot of picks to use so Romeus could find his way to the Pats.

No OT? I think they sign Light for another 2 Years and it looks as though both sides have interest. You still have Kaczur and they are trying to make Maneri into one of "DANTE'S KIDS". Watkins played OT in college as did Moffit somewhat....Versatility!

I really don't like this OT class outside Carimi. If the Pats miss out on him, I could see your scenario playing out. Doesn't look like Kaczur will be part of the equation but your point is still good.

 

[patchick]

those are clearly the 2 areas of need: a pass rushing DLman and and a pass rush specialist off the edge. The problem is that EVERYONE is looking for the same people. The problem is that MANY draftees come into the league having the potential to be good pass rushers. Unfortunately very few of them end up reaching that potential. They are that rare commodity that emakes all the rest end up being over valued coming into the league. But that doesn't mean shouldn't keep trying, or in BB's case "give it a shot at the top of the draft", because it clearly isn't working at the middle or bottom rounds'

Ken, you've just put about 3 years' worth of draft threads in a nutshell.

Drafting edge rushers is risky. They're hard to project, and have a high bust rate. That's why year after year, all of us here squabble over them. (Notice how much more consensus there usually is about DEs and NTs?) But if you don't take the risk and draft somebody, you're guaranteed to come away with nobody.

 

[Metaphors]

They ARE all 5 words!!!

Truncated Haiku Form???

Nah, just my way of controlling my tendency to drone on endlessly. Did a mock a couple of years back that read like War and Peace. I was exhausted writing it and even I didn't want to read it. Figured if I couldn't get my point across in 5 words, I probably didn't have a point to make. Making it exactly 5 words was just a bit of fun.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Given the short drops and quick releases of the today's QBs, should we really be looking for that "edge rusher" OR is the key to stopping today's passing game, be centered on finding the guy who can get penetration up the MIDDLE? Just a thought

Which is where BB has unsurprisingly put more than a few eggs in his effort to collapse the pocket and clog throwing lanes ... he needs some more height up front, and this draft has that to offer. Should be fun!

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

Nah, just my way of controlling my tendency to drone on endlessly. Did a mock a couple of years back that read like War and Peace. I was exhausted writing it and even I didn't want to read it. Figured if I couldn't get my point across in 5 words, I probably didn't have a point to make. Making it exactly 5 words was just a bit of fun.

Enjoyable read of course, too many choices of "WTF?" and "oh dear" to bicker over.

 

[Off The Grid]

Loved the effort of the 5 word statements, and they all made good sense.

They ARE all 5 words!!!

Truncated Haiku Form???

OTG--I am missing exactly what you are trying to say here.

"They ARE all 5 words?" Not sure what that means.

My comment to him was that I liked his effort in coming up with witty, cohesive statements in 5 words, as that likely was harder than it looks. Everything was pretty well written for being wrapped up in 5 words.

Are you saying that you agree? Sorry for the unintended ignorance.

Sorry for the unintended opacity ~ that's "lack of clarity" to you Earthlings ~ sir. To quote Brother Tom Hanks: The fault is mine.

All I'm thinking is that you are Dead On, and even MORE so, in your follow through: locking down to a discipline of 5 Word Statements IS harder than it looks, and clearly ECLIPSES the concentrated brevity that 17 Syllable Haikus impose on their Crafters.

I am, indeed, saying I agree, and heartily. And please accept my apologies for the unintended opacity: I'm pretty sure that I'm descended from Hobbits ~ as well as other assorted Critters ~ which lends an indecipherable aspect to my bloviations, I'm afraid.

 

[Off The Grid]

You make your points well Andy, especially the one about how the DE impacts the effectiveness of the rush, even if he doesn't get there himself. HOWEVER.....

I think you have to factor in the era we are playing in. This is the flag football era and passing is king. 60% completion rates are the MINIMUM requirements for just an AVERAGE QB in the NFL..The way the rules are set up it is virtually impossible to stop the passing game with pure coverage. The ONLY real way to stop a good passing attack is thru pressure.

The Pats D was HORRIBLE at it in 2010 and their D stats reflected it. So my rebuttal to your well thought out points is that in TODAY'S pass happy NFL, picking a "pass rush" specialist that "early" pick of a situational pass rusher DOES create enough value to justify the pick,

I think BB's past history of NOT doing this was valid, as the league was THEN.

But this is now and if anything BB has proven that he can be flexible in adjusting to the changes in the league.

This room annoys and frustrates me, from time to time, but for whatever it's worth ~ and no I am NOT asking!! ~ THIS is the kind of post that keeps bringing me back!! :rocker:

So, yeah: Everybody kick PatFanken's @$$ for bringing me back!!

 

[Off The Grid]

They ARE all 5 words!!!

Truncated Haiku Form???

Nah, just my way of controlling my tendency to drone on endlessly. Did a mock a couple of years back that read like War and Peace. I was exhausted writing it and even I didn't want to read it.

Figured if I couldn't get my point across in 5 words, I probably didn't have a point to make.

Making it exactly 5 words was just a bit of fun.

OK, who wants to bet me 5 Quid ~ whatever that is ~ that Brother Metaphor doesn't have a background in Marketing/Sales AND in Being English??

Seriously, Bro: That was rather brilliantly said. And as a Fellow War + Peacer, it struck home!!

 

[DW Toys]

I actually agree with you even though I picked Jordan. I don't see Jordan as a traditional 3-4 DE, but rather as someone that can be plugged in all over the place depending on situation and matchup:

4-3 DE in sub packages (traditionally an OLB role)
4-3 DT in sub packages (Mike Wright role)
3-4 OLB (obviously dropping into zone fairly infrequently)
3-4 DE against smaller/quicker OLs
Even ILB in short yardage/goal line or the "wandering LB" formation that was curiously absent last year

He might not even be considered a "starter" but still get more snaps than anyone else on the DL. As I said, if Belichick doesn't see him as capable in these roles, then I doubt he gets picked at #17.



I like Kerrigan but he doesn't seem to be athletic enough to justify #17. If he is stout enough against the run, he looks to be a combination of Cunningham and Eric Moore. Not a bad thing, just not optimal at #17.



Dude averaged about half a sack per game in a passing conference, so someone figured out how to block him. So many of these rush linebacker types rely on speed rushes outside. Without an effective counter move, you just get escorted neatly around the pocket with the QB never noticing you are even there. NFL tackles are too big and too technically sound. 10 sacks and 300 other plays where you are effectively MIA is not what Belichick wants.



He seems too tall for NT. If he is athletic enough for DE, he just takes a spot from Stroud or Brace. Pick #60 is still in the deep part of this draft class so there is value to be had. Not sure he is the best value for the Pats there.



Would like to see this scenario but I fear Romeus will be gone by this point. Belichick does have a lot of picks to use so Romeus could find his way to the Pats.



I really don't like this OT class outside Carimi. If the Pats miss out on him, I could see your scenario playing out. Doesn't look like Kaczur will be part of the equation but your point is still good.

Fair enough.
DW Toys