Is Vince Wilfork over the hill ?

[Kontradiction]

But for the past month plus I've been reading a ton of posts on this board lauding a potential move back to a 3-4 base defense, and ignoring the personnel fit issues.

Never understood that. I like the fit of our LB's in a 3-4, but the DL is woefully off to run that alignment.

 

[Rob0729]

Never understood that. I like the fit of our LB's in a 3-4, but the DL is woefully off to run that alignment.

I think the problem is that the have too many 3-4 OLBs and not enough 3-4 DEs. So you get Chandler Jones and Easley playing 3-4 DEs which is ridiculous.

I don't question the personnel decisions all that often, but I am still having problems getting my head around why Chandler Jones played DE in a 3-4 for most of the second half on Sunday. You take you best player who lines up on the line and put him in position where he is set up to fail and weakens another position because a lesser talent is where that player should be. It weakens two positions.

 

[mayoclinic]

I think the problem is that the have too many 3-4 OLBs and not enough 3-4 DEs. So you get Chandler Jones and Easley playing 3-4 DEs which is ridiculous.

We don't really have any linemen suitable to playing a 3-4, outside of the NT position, and even that is not without issues. They all lack some combination of length, bulk, and combat skills necessary to play that role. None of the linemen that BB has looked at this season - from Will Smith to Dominique Easley and Zach Moore to Jerel Worthy, Kelcy Quarles and Bruce Gaston - really fits well into a 3-4.

I don't question the personnel decisions all that often, but I am still having problems getting my head around why Chandler Jones played DE in a 3-4 for most of the second half on Sunday. You take you best player who lines up on the line and put him in position where he is set up to fail and weakens another position because a lesser talent is where that player should be. It weakens two positions.

I agree completely.

 

[ausbacker]

Enough of blaming the entire coaching STAFF. Bill is the one ultimately responsible - not patricia.

No, the defensive woes are a combination of Belichick and Patricia.

 

[Rob0729]

We don't really have any linemen suitable to playing a 3-4, outside of the NT position, and even that is not without issues. They all lack some combination of length, bulk, and combat skills necessary to play that role. None of the linemen that BB has looked at this season - from Will Smith to Dominique Easley and Zach Moore to Jerel Worthy, Kelcy Quarles and Bruce Gaston - really fits well into a 3-4.



I agree completely.

I think the Pats can make a 3-4 DE rotation of Siliga, CHRIS Jones, and Vellano work at times as long as all are healthy. But I still think this team is more suited now for an one gap 4-3 alignment. It is funny that they seem to be building that way with the drafting of guys like Jones, Easly, and Collins and then go back to more of a 3-4 two gap system.

 

[Sicilian]

I'm going to echo many of the thoughts here on Vince. It's his first game back from major surgery and he didn't have any legit run stuffers on the line around him. I'm willing to accept some rust in that situation and just hope it gets corrected or improves in week 2.

That said, he made some plays on Sunday, getting a good pash rush at one point and was in position to stuff Moreno at the 8 yard line when the game was still within reach. He missed the tackle (which again could be rust, tackling is usually one of the last things to come back), and so it looks bad. If we see the same issues over the next few weeks I'll start to worry, but for that game in that heat, I'm willing to give the big guy a break.

 

[Ivan]

Playing a 34 would be fine if Tommy Kelly were one of the Defensive Ends. Wilfork + Kelly + Jones/Siliga would at least manage 2 gap assignment.

Even today, I'm still scratching my head in amazement at the stupidity of yesterday's imposed defensive front. The coaches really stuffed it.

Right on the money, might as well say Chandler Jones sucks as well if you are going to evaluate the performance of that DL using a 4-3 pass rushing end as your 5 technique in a 3-4.

 

[Ivan]

I think the Pats can make a 3-4 DE rotation of Siliga, CHRIS Jones, and Vellano work at times as long as all are healthy. But I still think this team is more suited now for an one gap 4-3 alignment. It is funny that they seem to be building that way with the drafting of guys like Jones, Easly, and Collins and then go back to more of a 3-4 two gap system.

The Patriots need to go to a 4-3 with Wilfork and Easley inside and Jones and Ninkovich on the ends.

 

[TonyTucker]

I think he ate the hill

 

[Ivan]

Playing a 34 would be fine if Tommy Kelly were one of the Defensive Ends. Wilfork + Kelly + Jones/Siliga would at least manage 2 gap assignment.

Even today, I'm still scratching my head in amazement at the stupidity of yesterday's imposed defensive front. The coaches really stuffed it.

I don't see any point at all in using either Jones or Ninkovich as 3-4 Ends.

 

[reflexblue]

Trust me I know all the Koolaid drinkers will hate this question.

Is Vince Wilfork over the hill?

Last year he didn't look too good before he got hurt & I was shocked that they did not cut him or trade him when he
Complained that they asked him to take a pay cut.

I hope I am wrong & Vince turns it Around, but I don't see that happening.

Vince was getting pushed all over the place against a dolphin OL that is not known as a one of the better lines.

I never seen a team run straight up the middle as much as the dolphins did yesterday .

They never would have done that to a younger Wilfork.

NO....vinces is overly FAT. I read he lost wgt, but it looks like he gained 20-30 lbs. I don't care how "athletic" he is that extra wgt slowes him down

 

[Ivan]

As does - Idiot, Moron, Chicken Little, Troll - that's a popular one, Douchebag, Go be a Jets fan, Go be a Bills fan, Go be a Phins fan, GFY.

Coming from a guy who posted that the Patriots were in last place in the East with a great big smiley face right after the loss I would say all are applicable. Good luck to your jets this week.

 

[mayoclinic]

The Patriots need to go to a 4-3 with Wilfork and Easley inside and Jones and Ninkovich on the ends.

That would certainly be a good starting point. I think you could add another DT at times and run a 5-2 against run-heavy teams (e.g., Minnesota), and a 4-3 Under still intrigues me. But your suggested lineup is the most logical base with our personnel, and would play to their strengths.

 

[Kontradiction]

The Patriots need to go to a 4-3 with Wilfork and Easley inside and Jones and Ninkovich on the ends.

Easley on third downs, Siligia on first and second. But that would make too much sense.

 

[Ivan]

Easley on third downs, Siligia on first and second. But that would make too much sense.

I agree with that for the time being because Easely is coming off of a serious injury but he was a first rounder so ultimately he needs to be in there as a 3 down player.

 

[VrabelJr]

After scouring YouTube (ugh) for what little footage of the game I could find I noticed a few things:

- Wilfork isn't that effective as a 3-4 NT anymore. Whether this is age or the caliber of player next to him at 3-tech, he just didn't hold his ground at that spot. I think another factor is that Guards and Centers are a lot stronger and slightly taller now than they used to be. The extra couple inches in height seemed to affect his ability to see his gaps.
- Wilfork looked a lot better playing at 3-4 DE where he got double teamed by a Guard and Tackle instead of a Guard and Center. Siliga looks like a better NT to me right now.
- Maybe this will change as Wilfork knocks the rust off, I don't really know.

 

[RIpats88]

it was one game guys...6% of the season or something like that. i'm willing to give them a more than 1 game snap-shot to see how this defense is. if they bounce back next week against the vikings, great!

it is something to note that WIlfork and Mayo are playing their first NFL football in almost a year and it was REvis' first game as a patriot(and he didnt play that bad guys)

but, if the defensive woes stay with THIS MUCH talent on the defensive side of the ball, you have to start questioning the coaching staff and if they are using them correctly.

 

[Brady6]

I think the Pats can make a 3-4 DE rotation of Siliga, CHRIS Jones, and Vellano work at times as long as all are healthy. But I still think this team is more suited now for an one gap 4-3 alignment. It is funny that they seem to be building that way with the drafting of guys like Jones, Easly, and Collins and then go back to more of a 3-4 two gap system.

The primary difference between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DT is that often times the 3-4 DE is going to an OT instead of an OG or OC. This is an issue for players like Jones, Vellano, and Siliga because they lack the length to matchup with a 6’7” or 6’8” OT like Vollmer or Solder, their short arms force them to get in tight on the OT and then they cannot get past that OTs reach.

The closest thing to a 3-4 DE that we have on this team is Zach Moore who much like Chandler Jones is better suited to be a 4-3 DE.

 

[Brady6]

After scouring YouTube (ugh) for what little footage of the game I could find I noticed a few things:

- Wilfork isn't that effective as a 3-4 NT anymore. Whether this is age or the caliber of player next to him at 3-tech, he just didn't hold his ground at that spot. I think another factor is that Guards and Centers are a lot stronger and slightly taller now than they used to be. The extra couple inches in height seemed to affect his ability to see his gaps.
- Wilfork looked a lot better playing at 3-4 DE where he got double teamed by a Guard and Tackle instead of a Guard and Center. Siliga looks like a better NT to me right now.
- Maybe this will change as Wilfork knocks the rust off, I don't really know.

Wilfork used to be paired with Warren at LDE and Seymour at RDE. Now he is compensating for an undersized RDE and a JAG LDE.

 

[VrabelJr]

Wilfork used to be paired with Warren at LDE and Seymour at RDE. Now he is compensating for an undersized RDE and a JAG LDE.

The NFL has changed. The lines between 3-4 and 4-3 are more blurred than ever. Most 3-4 5-tech DE's aren't like Richard Seymour anymore. A few examples are Datone Jones, Calais Campbell (300 pounds but he is 6'8") and JJ Watt - the same height as Chandler Jones but only 10-15 pounds heavier.

You don't have the luxury of having 4 LBs on the field anymore in this day and age of the NFL. Teams have compensated by having a smaller 5 tech so they can still generate pass rush while having 5 DBs on the field.

I think Easley will actually be the perfect 3-tech DE due to his quick step. He can go against taller tackles from the inside because he has that elite speed to get under their pads. You saw that on the interception Tannehill threw. Easley drove the RT straight back and the RG came along for the ride because he had to provide inside protection. Otherwise Easley could have just shed the RT and sacked Tannehill. I loved that play.