Interesting tidbit on Crennel

Discussion in ' - Patriots Fan Forum' started by SVN, Jan 14, 2010.

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  1. SVN

    SVN Hall of Fame Poster

    Can KC create another masterpiece? - Extra Points -
    iam not sure if its that comfortable anymore for BB.
  2. mgteich

    mgteich Veteran Supporter

    I see no reason why he should be comfortable, given his current coaches.

    This may seem contradictory from me. I think that Pees generally did a good job, given what he ahd to work with. HOwever, I don't think that he could be 100% responsibile for developing and executing a game plan.

    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
  3. BelichickFan

    BelichickFan B.O. = Fugazi Supporter

    #12 Jersey

    The quotes seem a little inconsistent saying Belichick has his fingers on everything but Crenel did everything on defense. Yes, I get that the game plan and calling could be done by Crennel all with Belichick's blessing but the wording comes out a little inconsistent to me.
  4. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks Supporter Supporter

    The missed point may have been RAC wasn't the one determining what RAC was installing...

    RAC never advanced to DC except under BB. He left for a year in Cleveland as a result. But in all their season with the Giants and JETSand NE, even when Bill wasn't blocking his path, RAC never got tapped as a coordinator. He remained a position coach. Bill didn't need him to be creative, he just needed a guy who understood his system and scheme who could implement it. Pioli is gonna need more from RAC. We'll see if he gets enough.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
  5. mgteich

    mgteich Veteran Supporter

    I agree 100%. And that is why I wanted RAC back. He is well capable of listening to Belichick, developing a game plan, installing a game plan and making midgame corrections.

    Are you confident that Pees has the same abilities?

  6. robertweathers

    robertweathers Pro Bowl Player

    I think it's pretty straightforward. RAC comes up with the strategy & gameplan- complete with packages, plays, etc. He presents it to BB for approval. At that time, BB may want to add a wrinkle here and there. That happens throughout the season with the final gameplan provided to the players on Wednesday. Holley calls this out in his Patriot Reign. RAC thought that they could handle the Carolina running game with the front 3. BB wanted to move LBs up to the box. RAC won.

    So RAC develops the gameplan and BB approves it. Depending on BBs confidence in the coach, BB may delegate or assume more responsibility i.e call the plays on gameday, etc.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
  7. BionicPatriot

    BionicPatriot In the Starting Line-Up

    Is anyone surprised? Why else do you think our halftime adjustments have fallen through the roof? Pees isn't the worst, but he's no RAC obviously because I don't remember the last time our D adjusted to dominate the second half.

    I'm not even going to touch offense. Wether we like our coordinators or not, we're expecting TOO much from Bill, and the extra work load is stretching him thin. I'm surprised he didn't make a big push to get Weis or RAC back.
  8. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks Supporter Supporter

    I am, because I realize it's not the game plans that have failed us, it's the personnel and inconsistent execution. Some of that is lack of talent, some of it is lack of experience and sadly some of that is lack of leadership (which will be harder to replace than flat out talent and is more important in a BB defense than all pro skills).
  9. parthasas

    parthasas Patriots Nation Supporter

    #12 Jersey

    This is what baffles me. Forget the pass rush, tackling has been awful for the past couple of years and RBs consistently run for more yards after initial contact. This never used to be the case. quality of "talent", perhaps contributed to the predictable D but there is no excuse for piss poor tackling. I remember BB's quote, one of us have it in their signature, and wonder how this is allowed to continue.

    I heard Jonathan Kraft in 98.5 mentioning that nobody is happy in the "building". Hope we will see some real transformation beginning this off season.
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
  10. robertweathers

    robertweathers Pro Bowl Player

    Agreed. This defense is read & react. To play this style well, you need experience in seeing a multitude of things defensively and make the adjustments and calls accordingly based on what you see. We've heard this time and time again from the players and coaches.

    Is RAC a better DC than Pees? Maybe. RAC was lauded as being outstanding at making adjustments at 1/2 time. Pees did well with the same group of players that RAC had. I do wonder how Pees would have faired if he had Law, McGinest, Bru, Johnson, Pfeifer and Harrison when they were playing at a high level. Venture to say pretty well IMO.
  11. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks Supporter Supporter

    That has NEVER been the way it worked here, particularly on defense. And I couldn't find any reference to RAC gameplanning for Carolina. Holley talked about how Bill, RAC and Charlie knew Fox's tendancies as well as some of Fox's coaches knew theirs, but Bill was sure the Panthers wouldn't be conservative as a result and the gameplan was predicated in part to be prepared to exploit Delhomme's tendancy to be careless with the football. Coordinators have input, he prefers everyone develop their own ideas first and then present/dissect/critique them as a group, but Bill is ultimately the one who decides whether any or all of their concepts have merit or he's got an entirely different read on the matchup. The core defensive gameplan that stopped the Rams was a Bill and Ernie brainchild. Don't blitz Warner, harass his weapons and key off where Faulk is lining up. Play the concept even if they make some plays, just avoid the big play and don't fall for repeat looks because they never run the same play twice. It was up to RAC to devise the best ways to implement it given his personnel and install it and sell the players on adhering to it once they got to NO.

    The interesting thing to remember in all this though is we gave up leads in all those games, multiple times against Carolina when the game appeared to be in hand, and Brady even made mistakes in some of them. It wasn't the coordinator's fault then, either. A defensive chess match that stymied both offenses suddenly turned into an offensive fist fight where neither defense could make a play. Players make mistakes and fail to execute as coached. It happens all the time on every team in the league. Coaches are just easier scapegoats because fans perceive them as fungible.
  12. robertweathers

    robertweathers Pro Bowl Player

    I dont have the book in front of me. I know that I read somewhere. BB was scared to death of Stephen Davis and wanted to commit more help at the LoS and RAC felt that they could contain him with the guys on the line. I gotta dig that up.

    Thats kinda what I said. No? Coordniators come up w/ the gameplan and BB critiques and changes as he sees fit. certainly if BB feels strongly about a particular strategy for a certain opponant her will provide direction to the coord. accordingly.

    Yes- that is exactly what happened.

    I don't disagree. Am I coming off as blaming anyone?
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2010
  13. MoLewisrocks

    MoLewisrocks Supporter Supporter

    Coordinators don't come up with game plans he critiques. He doesn't like that dynamic because of the pissing matches it can result in when guys dig their heels in. Each of them comes up with their own concepts and ideas and they accept or reject them on merit. From those discussions Bill settles on an overall approach and then the coordinator flushes it out. Bill then tweeks it all along the way depanding on personnel and circumstances (ours and opponents) and by Wednesday it's taken shape and is installed.

    At a lot of other locations the HC has no input whatsoever by design or choice. Coordinator's in those situations basically sink or swim on their own merits. HC's in those situations are often one dimentional or primarily cheerleaders. Here it remains a collaberative and Bill is involved in every aspect of the gameplanning on offense, defense and ST all along the way. It has always been that way, this doesn't represent a change since RAC and Charlie left. People assume they were more forceful in their interactions with Bill but we don't know that. I've heard of he and Scott disagreeing and having to meet in the middle because Bill chose for that to be their relationship dynamic. For all we know that was a bad thing...
  14. cstjohn17

    cstjohn17 Supporter Supporter

    #54 Jersey

    Yes, sadly the lack of quality video tape has declined recently.
  15. Leave No Doubt

    Leave No Doubt Supporter Supporter

    BB said in that recent interview with PFT that he misses the interaction and honest critiquing that used to go on between himself, RAC and Charlie. He doesn't want a bunch of yes-men as assistants/coordinators, he wants someone who's comfortable enough to challenge his ideas.

    BB's always worked closely with his coaching team and as he said, familiarity is what strengthened the relationship between the 3 of them (he noteably left out Mangenius ;)). He likes to brainstorm but he said certain things are non-negotiable. - Belichick not receiving much coaching resistance
    Indeed, BB didn't know Pees except through Nick Saban. And Pees is now gone so BB's pre-firing comments are even more interesting :)
  16. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson Veteran Supporter

    My understanding always has been that BB has the coordinators prepare a game plan for his review and approval. Of course they prepare it based on how he coaches them. Its not like the coordinators make up game plans that don't fit BBs philosophy.
    I think what most fans miss is that one of the primary functions of a HC is to coach the coaches.
    I have no doubt that the coordinator would teach the game plan to the players and call the game. But before they do that they come to an agreement with BB about what it will be and if there is disagreement BB makes the decision (which could be to trust his coordinators idea) But all year round BB is communicating to all of the coaches, teaching them his philosophy and coaching them up.
    Everyone who has ever spoken about being on a BB team has said that above all else he has more knowledge than anyone and spends more time teaching than anyone.
  17. AndyJohnson

    AndyJohnson Veteran Supporter

    Thats an important part of BBs management style. (I share it by the way)
    He is ultimately making the decision. That decision could be to allow the coordinator to do something BB disagrees with if the coordinator feels very strongly about it. (I'm not saying something crazy, but a variation off of the basic philosophy. One example would be coming out in the no huddle and throwing 20 straight times in 2002 vs Pitt. BB may have disagreed but Weis may have made such a convincing argument that he allowed him to try it)
    Making the underling come up with their own ideas and defend their thinking behind it not only helps the boss correct errors in their thinking but also creates new ideas for the open minded boss.
    If the only idea the underlings have are the ones you gave them, your own thinking can get stale.
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