If Patriots Win, Best Area Championship Ever?

[Watson's IQ]

Keep this with you kid you'll laugh at yourself in time.


... a quote from Mark Twain "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."


Its is not generational fanhood competition! Its is generational fanhood experiences!

You couldn't be any more wrong, and I really pity you greatly. I'm an educated person, not only in terms of school but in the history of baseball and the Red Sox, and as much as I resent your strong implication that I'm some impetuous youth, I'm just going to ignore it.

I have never once said or implied that I think I know something more about baseball or life than someone who has been around longer, and seen more. Your assertions imply that because I didn't personally experience the entire history of a team, I should be any less equipped to appreciate them than someone who lived them. And maybe you're right to a certain extent on that count. But to conclude from this that the outpouring of emotion, or genuine relief on the part of a younger generation is somehow laughable, as you did in your first post on the subject, is ridiculous and insulting.

As for your quote, I don't in any way think that my youth affords me some special insight that an older generation lacks, and once I've "done some growing up" or however you want to put it, I'll learn better and have a good laugh at myself. I have an immense respect for both history and older generations, and I do not in the least think to be old is to be a fool. I think you are a fool, and that's where the difference lies I guess.

I'll consider it not really worth either of our time to discuss further, since I'm likely to continue to feel the way I do, and continue to be portrayed as a "young whipper-snapper" or a "Sonny Buck", or whatever else you want to say.

 

[allworldrussfrancis]

I guess I'll give you guys the benefit of the doubt, since several confirmed it. I'd still like to see the specific poll and how it was worded if anyone knows where I could get a look at it, since if the results are as they say you are, it surprised me as well.

If I recall, they actually did two polls and yes, beating the Yanks was a separate item. The first poll the '01 pats won easily (probably since the '04 WS and ALCS sox split), but then they did a direct face off and '01 Pats narrowly beat the '04 Sox.

I have always loved both teams and I don;t think they should be compared, but the way I see it is this:

The '01 Pats and '04 Sox were unforgettable in a cathartic way. Both teams purged years of frustration and I agree it was more cathartic with the Sox due to the curse, etc. However, the Pats that year were also like the cardiac kids, similar to the '67 Sox but instead they finished the deal.

The '86 Celts and (hopefully) the '07 Pats are unforgettable in another way - simply the greatest teams ever in their respective sport.

 

[Watson's IQ]

The '01 Pats and '04 Sox were unforgettable in a cathartic way. Both teams purged years of frustration and I agree it was more cathartic with the Sox due to the curse, etc. However, the Pats that year were also like the cardiac kids, similar to the '67 Sox but instead they finished the deal.

The '86 Celts and (hopefully) the '07 Pats are unforgettable in another way - simply the greatest teams ever in their respective sport.

Agree 100% on these counts. It's hard to compare the '04 Sox to the '07 Patriots for just that reason, the emotions involved are completely different.

So in that sense, comparing the '01 Pats to the '04 Sox does make somewhat more sense, although I think I'll just be glad ultimately to have experienced both.

 

[Patradomous]

I have never once said or implied that I think I know something more about baseball or life than someone who has been around longer, and seen more. Your assertions imply that because I didn't personally experience the entire history of a team, I should be any less equipped to appreciate them than someone who lived them. And maybe you're right to a certain extent on that count. But to conclude from this that the outpouring of emotion, or genuine relief on the part of a younger generation is somehow laughable, as you did in your first post on the subject, is ridiculous and insulting

Why do I have a look on my face like a head wound victim?

 

[LurkingLinebacker]

Keep this with you kid you'll laugh at yourself in time.


... a quote from Mark Twain "When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years."


Its is not generational fanhood competition! Its is generational fanhood experiences!

I think I have to agree with you. Obviously there's no definitive answer. But Watson's IQ and I can recall 2003 with AFB (Aaron (use your imagination) Boone) and how that felt like a dagger through the heart.

Let's not forget that feeling, but remember that it wasn't even the world series. In 86, 78, and 67 they were, and in 86, 78, and 67, we weren't "conscious" of the world of baseball.

I think at best, as 22 year olds, we can only share with older generations to some degree. It's not a competition, but just because I've seen Buckner miss that ground ball a million times doesn't mean I can recall exactly where I was and exactly how I felt.

To be more extreme, I can watch clips of JFK's assassination, the horrible opening scene of Saving Private Ryan depicting the invasion of Normandy and feel terrible.... but I did not experience it, I have no idea what people who lived then felt.

Similarly, people born from the millenium on will have no idea how I or you or anyone else felt at around 10 or 11 am on Sept. 11, 2001.

I just think I would have appreciated the 2004 victory much more had I been older and had been able to endure some of the painful parts of Red Sox history.

 

[Patradomous]

I think at best, as 22 year olds, we can only share with older generations to some degree. It's not a competition, but just because I've seen Buckner miss that ground ball a million times doesn't mean I can recall exactly where I was and exactly how I felt.

To be more extreme, I can watch clips of JFK's assassination, the horrible opening scene of Saving Private Ryan depicting the invasion of Normandy and feel terrible.... but I did not experience it, I have no idea what people who lived then felt.

Similarly, people born from the millenium on will have no idea how I or you or anyone else felt at around 10 or 11 am on Sept. 11, 2001.

I just think I would have appreciated the 2004 victory much more had I been older and had been able to endure some of the painful parts of Red Sox history.

Thank You! Outstanding post.
My whole point is like looking into the nite sky and saying "Boy does that moon look cool." while standin next to Neil Armstrong with him laughin and sayin "You don't know the half of it."
to use an extreme.

 

[Watson's IQ]

I think I have to agree with you. Obviously there's no definitive answer. But Watson's IQ and I can recall 2003 with AFB (Aaron (use your imagination) Boone) and how that felt like a dagger through the heart.

Let's not forget that feeling, but remember that it wasn't even the world series. In 86, 78, and 67 they were, and in 86, 78, and 67, we weren't "conscious" of the world of baseball.

I think at best, as 22 year olds, we can only share with older generations to some degree. It's not a competition, but just because I've seen Buckner miss that ground ball a million times doesn't mean I can recall exactly where I was and exactly how I felt.

To be more extreme, I can watch clips of JFK's assassination, the horrible opening scene of Saving Private Ryan depicting the invasion of Normandy and feel terrible.... but I did not experience it, I have no idea what people who lived then felt.

Similarly, people born from the millenium on will have no idea how I or you or anyone else felt at around 10 or 11 am on Sept. 11, 2001.

I just think I would have appreciated the 2004 victory much more had I been older and had been able to endure some of the painful parts of Red Sox history.

You make some strong points. I guess I just choose to look at it differently. Rather than thinking "gee, this doesn't mean as much to me as it did to my dad who lived through Buckner, and BFD, and all of that," I chose to view it more as a bond beteen generations, not a point of difference.

I looked at it and said: Here's my generation, who's most traumatic Red Sox memory is Aaron Boone, and here's my dad, who remembers Buckner and Dent, and even older generations who have richer memories of times even before that.. Even though we all have such different experiences with the Red Sox, and different flash points in our memories about why the team means so much to us, and yet here we all are enjoying it together and sharing in the joy of it, regardless of our generation or anything else. It was a truly uniting experience for me, to see that something like a sports team could bring so many people together who could experience something like that for the first time.

 

[Tommysgirl]

I think I have to agree with you. Obviously there's no definitive answer. But Watson's IQ and I can recall 2003 with AFB (Aaron (use your imagination) Boone) and how that felt like a dagger through the heart.

Let's not forget that feeling, but remember that it wasn't even the world series. In 86, 78, and 67 they were, and in 86, 78, and 67, we weren't "conscious" of the world of baseball.

I think at best, as 22 year olds, we can only share with older generations to some degree. It's not a competition, but just because I've seen Buckner miss that ground ball a million times doesn't mean I can recall exactly where I was and exactly how I felt.

To be more extreme, I can watch clips of JFK's assassination, the horrible opening scene of Saving Private Ryan depicting the invasion of Normandy and feel terrible.... but I did not experience it, I have no idea what people who lived then felt.

Similarly, people born from the millenium on will have no idea how I or you or anyone else felt at around 10 or 11 am on Sept. 11, 2001.

I just think I would have appreciated the 2004 victory much more had I been older and had been able to endure some of the painful parts of Red Sox history.

You are dead on here. I love the Celts and it kills me that I never saw Russell play. I appreciate all the history and seen a ton of film, but I'll never really KNOW what it felt like to watch him and see it unfold. Therefore, I can't 100% appreciate it.

 

[Watson's IQ]

You are dead on here. I love the Celts and it kills me that I never saw Russell play. I appreciate all the history and seen a ton of film, but I'll never really KNOW what it felt like to watch him and see it unfold. Therefore, I can't 100% appreciate it.

You appreciate it in an entirely different way, but you still appreciate it. I can remember sitting on the floor with my dad when I was a little kid and looking at old Red Sox baseball cards. I had no idea who these people were at first, or why they meant so much to him, but by hearing him talk about them they took on an almost mythic status to me, like old legends.

I never saw Fred Lynn play, but hearing my dad reminisce about his favorite player is an entirely different kind of joy than having been there. Is it better? I don't think it's a question of better or worse, and if I could build a time machine and go back and watch every Sox game from the beginning, nothing would make me happier.

But listening to him talk about it, and being able to share that with someone who loves the same thing you do, but who's experienced it an entirely different way, is a really special thing to me, and I'm sure to many others as well.

It's not about thinking any less of any particular generation, because sports are wonderful in their ability to bring young and old together over a common passion. That's one of it's great beauties, at least to me.

 

[allworldrussfrancis]

Agree 100% on these counts. It's hard to compare the '04 Sox to the '07 Patriots for just that reason, the emotions involved are completely different.

So in that sense, comparing the '01 Pats to the '04 Sox does make somewhat more sense, although I think I'll just be glad ultimately to have experienced both.

I completely agree.

 

[VJCPatriot]

First keep in mind that this is a subjective question.
That means its a matter of opinion.

If we were to go by the facts alone, the Perfect season of course is the best championship ever.
And if you want to talk about setting records and offensive statistics you can't top what the Pats have accomplished in 2007.

Still there was something about the Pats first championship in 2001 that was special. The first time is always very, very special.

And you can never take away what the Sox accomplished in 2004. The bloody sock game will long live in the lore of Boston sports feats.

But 2007 is again, something that we have never seen done. 19-0.
It's like magic, except it's actually happening right before our eyes.
I say savor the experience, enjoy it. Because it will likely never come again.

Now let's beat the stuffing out of those Giants!! :rocker:

 

[LurkingLinebacker]

First keep in mind that this is a subjective question.
That means its a matter of opinion.

If we were to go by the facts alone, the Perfect season of course is the best championship ever.
And if you want to talk about setting records and offensive statistics you can't top what the Pats have accomplished in 2007.

Still there was something about the Pats first championship in 2001 that was special. The first time is always very, very special.

And you can never take away what the Sox accomplished in 2004. The bloody sock game will long live in the lore of Boston sports feats.
But 2007 is again, something that we have never seen done. 19-0.
It's like magic, except it's actually happening right before our eyes.
I say savor the experience, enjoy it. Because it will likely never come again.

Now let's beat the stuffing out of those Giants!! :rocker:

I was at that game, definitely a surreal experience looking back since we didnt know Schill had a bloody sock or that A-Rod had slapped Arroyo's glove until friends called us... definitely amazing... definitely hard to pick number 1... for me

 

[PonyExpress]

Just a few thoughts on the ongoing argument about whether young people can understand the heartache of older fans:

Sports are for young people. Young people are most deeply affected by artificial drama. As people get older sports should be an amusement and diversion, not a life and death struggle. When I hear older fans talk about "heartache" and "pain" and "suffering", and seek to trump the "suffering" of young fans with stories of "long drawn out pain", it sounds silly.

The first wound is the only one that matters.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Prove it.

Well, I did misrember. As some one else pointed out, it was a narrow margin of victory for the '01 Patriots, not a significant one as I said. (I realized my error when I read that post.)

Thanks to those who also remembered this poll and chimed in.

By the way, I voted for the '01 Patriots - and was amazed that they ultimately won the vote. I regret that I didn't follow the '04 Red Sox as I should have, primarily because I didn't get NESN and there were less than 10 regular season games available over the air all season. Because I wasn't living and dying with them throughout the season, I didn't have nearly the same satisfaction on their incredible comeback as I did for the '01 Patriots. And, yes, I like following football much better than baseball as well.

 

[Imperator]

As someone who likes football more, and is also a bigger Patriots fan then Sox fan, even I must agree that the 04 Red Sox transcends anything that any team in this region (arguably, this country) has or may ever do. 86 years for a fan base as devout as Red Sox nation and then the trials they had to go through to win (namely beating the Yankees in the ALCS), was just something altogether... Special. Not to say that a Superbowl victory this Sunday won't be (On a personal level, I would relish it even more). But just all the things posters have already pointed out. How it seemed to lift an incredible weight off the shoulders of every Red Sox fan in the world, living and dead. On a regional level, that's just something that cannot be outdone.

On the other hand, this 07 Patriots squad will trump the 04 Sox in something else entirely with a win. They will be perfect. The hallmark team of all professional sports. Emotion or not, people all across the nation (not just Boston and New England), decades from now will still be talking (or at least have it in the back of their minds) of the legendary 2007 Patriots. Of course, they have to win on Sunday for that to come to fruition.

 

[patriotspride]

Coming back from an 3-0 defecit against your hated rivals (which just so happens to be the biggest rivalry in professional sports) during the 86th year of your championship drought is HUGE. This is after 2003 where the Sox had the Yankees on the ropes in the ALCS only to not get it done in the end (again.) 2003 was supposed to be "the year", then in 2004, the team fell behind to a point where no team had ever recovered, only to storm back and eventually destroy a 100+ win team in the World Series.

The potential for 19-0 is huge too, but not on the same scale given the relative success of the Patriot franchise this decade.

Saying that the 2004 Sox team was just "winning 4 games in a row" is being completely ignorant to the situation. For any serious Boston sports fan, that week in October of 2004 went from being one of the worst of their lives to the best in the blink of an eye.

i second that .people forget what the sox did in 04 had never been done by any team in the history of baseball .and thats a 100 plus year history .