Good thoughts my mom had.

[nukin]

so, when exactly did I argue against this point?

my point is, so what? I was born heterosexual. It doesnt mean its ok to have sex with every woman that moves. I was born capable of lying, cheating, and killing. It doesnt mean its ok to lie, cheat, and kill.

a person is born homosexual. It doesnt mean it isnt sinful to act on it.

I dont HAVE to have sex before marriage. I dont HAVE to lie. I dont HAVE to cheat. I dont HAVE to kill. I dont HAVE to envy. And a homosexual doesnt HAVE to engage it in.

But we all do engage in one sin or another because we are all flawed human beings. We are all sinners. And without atonement for that sin we are condemned. ************ paid the penalty for our sin. By accepting that we have sinned, and by accepting what Jesus did for us by accepting Him, we are forgiven.

They don't have to engage in it, sure - Is it a sin to get married? I don't think so...

... is it a sin for a homosexual to get married to another homosexual? Yes. That is what we are trying to say. Sure they don't HAVE to act on it - but not every homosexual has sex and then that's how they engage.

 

[3 to be 4]

They don't have to engage in it, sure - Is it a sin to get married? I don't think so...

... is it a sin for a homosexual to get married to another homosexual? Yes. That is what we are trying to say. Sure they don't HAVE to act on it - but not every homosexual has sex and then that's how they engage.

Not following. How do they engage?

in any case, whether there is sin involved in this area or not, there is sin in many other areas of life as well that no human is capable of avoiding completely. The act of Homosexually is sin but so is a host of other things that are quite common to man. This is what I mean when I say I dont get too focused on this issue. The main thing is that we all have sin, and we all fall short. Thus, there is the need for repentance and for the acceptance of one who paid the penalty for our sin.

If a Homosexual has accepted Christ, He or She can be secure in their Salvation. Someone who does all the right things, but has not accepted Christ, is not.

Other than this, im not sure what else I can say. I'm not going to tell you Homosexual sex is not sin. But what I am saying, and this differs from the crowd Tune wants to lump me in with continually, is that the sin is forgiven upon acceptance of Christ.

And I believe that my interpretation is consistant with the Bible and what most mainstream Evangelicals would say, not the right-wing types the media and most non-believers want you to believe Evangelicals are in order to justify their own rejection of the Gospel.

 

[nukin]

Not following. How do they engage?

in any case, whether there is sin involved in this area or not, there is sin in many other areas of life as well that no human is capable of avoiding completely. The act of Homosexually is sin but so is a host of other things that are quite common to man. This is what I mean when I say I dont get too focused on this issue. The main thing is that we all have sin, and we all fall short. Thus, there is the need for repentance and for the acceptance of one who paid the penalty for our sin.

If a Homosexual has accepted Christ, He or She can be secure in their Salvation. Someone who does all the right things, but has not accepted Christ, is not.

Other than this, im not sure what else I can say. I'm not going to tell you Homosexual sex is not sin. But what I am saying, and this differs from the crowd Tune wants to lump me in with continually, is that the sin is forgiven upon acceptance of Christ.

And I believe that my interpretation is consistant with the Bible and what most mainstream Evangelicals would say, not the right-wing types the media and most non-believers want you to believe Evangelicals are in order to justify their own rejection of the Gospel.

They can engage in sexual relationships, yes - as can heterosexuals. It is a sin for both to do it - unless the heterosexual is married, then it is okay for them - the homosexual, it is not.

 

[3 to be 4]

They can engage in sexual relationships, yes - as can heterosexuals. It is a sin for both to do it - unless the heterosexual is married, then it is okay for them - the homosexual, it is not.

that is correct.

although for even the married heterosexual, there is sin in their lives without accepting Christ.

The homosexual in Christ has forgiveness while a non-believing heterosexual is condemned without accepting ************.

 

[nukin]

that is correct.

although for even the married heterosexual, there is sin in their lives without accepting Christ.

The homosexual in Christ has forgiveness while a non-believing heterosexual is condemned without accepting ************.

Right. I think that was the other guys point - the homosexual is born already condemned. The heterosexual is born does not - until they sin.

 

[3 to be 4]

Right. I think that was the other guys point - the homosexual is born already condemned. The heterosexual is born does not - until they sin.

mmmm. no. we are all born unto sin.

 

[nukin]

mmmm. no. we are all born unto sin.

So what sins are homosexuals born with? Being homosexual.

What sins are heterosexuals born with that homosexuals arnt?

 

[Tunescribe]

that is correct.

although for even the married heterosexual, there is sin in their lives without accepting Christ.

The homosexual in Christ has forgiveness while a non-believing heterosexual is condemned without accepting ************.

You are such a trip. Here is another hypothetical: Adolph Hitler murdered at least 6 million people. Would he be in heaven right now if he accepted Christ as his savior while a small child? And don't try the argument that "People who believe in Jesus don't murder." They sure do! Although, the way you argue it, murder and shoplifting are equal sins; all sins are interchangeable -- a sin is a sin is a sin. Right?

 

[thesmee1]

That is not what he is saying at all.

You are BORN Homosexual - Sure, everyone is capable of ENGAGEING in homosexual activities, but you are Genetically born to be homosexual. It is a difference in brain structure that makes you attracted to men, or women. Homosexual men sometimes feel as if they are a women, trapped in a mans body, or they are just attracted because they are. It's not a choice, it's not a desision - it's a fact - You are born homosexual.

I saw it with my own two eyes. It is a fact. He's very feminine too, so I'm sure the teenage years were brutal. Fleabassist, I'm glad your mom is comfortable with her sexuality, and to be comfortable with it, with you. You have a terrific mom.

 

[nukin]

I saw it with my own two eyes. It is a fact. He's very feminine too, so I'm sure the teenage years were brutal. Fleabassist, I'm glad your mom is comfortable with her sexuality, and to be comfortable with it, with you. You have a terrific mom.

Well, she has been gay all along - but the society that she grew up in (70's,80's) it was not accepted by her parents - her family - or her religion.

She felt compelled to marry a man and to become straight. She ignored herself, and had four kids with a horrible man - who is my father.
Thirteen years later, she get's a divorce with him - due to him being a horrible person.
Six years after that, she comes out to me - my siblings - and her family. She finally realized who she is. Her girlfriend is a wonderful person, who - for the first time in my siblings lives - loves them. She cares, provides, and much more. I am very glad my mom has found someone that makes her happy - and she is glad to be the person she was born to be.

 

[3 to be 4]

So what sins are homosexuals born with? Being homosexual.

What sins are heterosexuals born with that homosexuals arnt?

No, being human. all human are born into sin. Being homosexual or heterosexual has nothing to do with it.

 

[3 to be 4]

You are such a trip. Here is another hypothetical: Adolph Hitler murdered at least 6 million people. Would he be in heaven right now if he accepted Christ as his savior while a small child? And don't try the argument that "People who believe in Jesus don't murder." They sure do! Although, the way you argue it, murder and shoplifting are equal sins; all sins are interchangeable -- a sin is a sin is a sin. Right?

The fact is, there ARE many people who claim to be Christians, who say they believe in ************, yet do awful things. There are people like this in EVERY group. If someone is nutty enough to do insane, hideous things, is this an indictment on the religion they claim, or the people they are??

Woody Allen married his stepdaughter. Is this a failure of Judaism? Do you believe that Woody Allen, based on what you know of him, lives as an Orthodox Jew?

Adolph Hitler was NOT a born again Christian, so your question is silly. Had he been a Born Again Christian, I can safely say he would not have murdered 6 million people.

Instead of going off the deep end and trying to dredge up the most extreme, ridiculous examples for your point of view, can you please try to come up with something a little more realistic? Its like Sean Hannity always booking the most insane, loony, left-winger possible on every issue so that he looks like the sane one.

As far as you last jab "the way you are argue it, a sin is a sin"

No, its not my opinion, its what the Bible says. According to the law, unless you follow the law to perfection, you have sin and the penalty of sin is eternal seperation from God. That is, unless there was atonement. Jesus became that atonement with His death on the cross.

Im sure you dont approve of the law. I dont think God is concerned with getting your approval. But if you dont understand sin, and you cant accept that you have sin, its going to be hard to understand the rest of it.

In most cases, its not that people cant understand sin, it just that they dont want to have to give it up, to change. So they get real testy with the person who is reminding them of it. They call them "dangerous", or "narrow minded". They link them with the most extreme cases they can think of.

Did you ever hear the story of Saul? He murdered. He persecuted Christians.
Then he had a vision from the Lord. He accepted ************ and changed his name to Paul.

This life is so small compared to Gods Kingdom. And there are people who have commited horrible crimes and have had Salvation. It may not seem fair, but the Bible says to leave Justice to God.

Someone may lead an wonderful life. But if they have denied Christ, they build on sinking sand.

The Bible explains it much better than I ever could. Romans is a good book to read about Justification by Faith.

 

[Tunescribe]

Adolph Hitler was NOT a born again Christian, so your question is silly.

Hey, guess what?

http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

 

[3 to be 4]

Hey, guess what?

http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

google works fast for you.

so because "Jim Walker" put this together, we can conclude that Adolph Hitler was a Born Again Christian, exterminating Jews in the name of ************, AND, we can make the leap that, in his heart, he was really practicing his love for ************, AND, this is the fault of ************, the Bible, and Christianity. Therefore, Evangelicals like myself will one day exterminate the Jews.

very impressive, Tune. Im giving up the Bible and reading nobeliefs.com forever.

People can claim anything. By his life and his actions Adolph Hitler did not have the Holy Spirit nor did he remotely believe in ************ as his own life was lived in such extreme opposite of the example set by ************. He used this claim to try to justify himself.

Its not what Religious school you go to or what Religion you claim. Its not what you know, its who you know. Hitler did not know ************.

 

[3 to be 4]

Hey, guess what?

http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm

hey, guess what?

http://www.answers.org/apologetics/hitquote.html

 

[Tunescribe]

hey, guess what?

http://www.answers.org/apologetics/hitquote.html

Oh yeah? Check THIS out!

http://cuttingedge.org/news/n1770d.cfm

Adolf Hitler claimed he was Christian! Evangelical Christian leaders supported Hitler greatly; even Baptists were split over whether Hitler was truly Born Again. Listen to Adolf's testimony:

"I am absolutely convinced of the great power and the deep significance of the Christian religion, and consequently will not permit any other founders of religion (Religionsstifter) ... I will protect the rights and freedom of the church and will not permit them to be touched. You need have no apprehensions concerning the freedom of the church." [Hitler, quoted from "The German Churches Under Hitler", p.241]

Adolf Hitler professed faith in ************ and claimed to be a Christian! He affirmed the Christian faith, never shut down a Christian church, and claimed that his actions during World War II were fully consistent with Biblical teaching and commandment.

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior... I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Speech, 12 April 1921

 

[thesmee1]

Oh yeah? Check THIS out!

http://cuttingedge.org/news/n1770d.cfm

Adolf Hitler claimed he was Christian! Evangelical Christian leaders supported Hitler greatly; even Baptists were split over whether Hitler was truly Born Again. Listen to Adolf's testimony:

"I am absolutely convinced of the great power and the deep significance of the Christian religion, and consequently will not permit any other founders of religion (Religionsstifter) ... I will protect the rights and freedom of the church and will not permit them to be touched. You need have no apprehensions concerning the freedom of the church." [Hitler, quoted from "The German Churches Under Hitler", p.241]

Adolf Hitler professed faith in ************ and claimed to be a Christian! He affirmed the Christian faith, never shut down a Christian church, and claimed that his actions during World War II were fully consistent with Biblical teaching and commandment.

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior... I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Speech, 12 April 1921

Holy ****! I've never felt compelled to look up anything regarding Hitler. That's some very scary stuff. Genocide in the name of the Lord.

 

[3 to be 4]

Oh yeah? Check THIS out!

http://cuttingedge.org/news/n1770d.cfm

Adolf Hitler claimed he was Christian! Evangelical Christian leaders supported Hitler greatly; even Baptists were split over whether Hitler was truly Born Again. Listen to Adolf's testimony:

"I am absolutely convinced of the great power and the deep significance of the Christian religion, and consequently will not permit any other founders of religion (Religionsstifter) ... I will protect the rights and freedom of the church and will not permit them to be touched. You need have no apprehensions concerning the freedom of the church." [Hitler, quoted from "The German Churches Under Hitler", p.241]

Adolf Hitler professed faith in ************ and claimed to be a Christian! He affirmed the Christian faith, never shut down a Christian church, and claimed that his actions during World War II were fully consistent with Biblical teaching and commandment.

"My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior... I am fighting for the work of the Lord." - Speech, 12 April 1921

Was Hitler a Christian?
By John Baskette - but the information came from Marty Helgesen in a soc.religion.christian post.
The claim is sometimes made that Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic until the day he died. In fact, Hitler rejected Christianity.

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:


Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:


National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:


Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:


The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:


The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:


Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, ***gots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:


Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)


14th December, 1941, midday:


Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:


There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:


It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)

 

[3 to be 4]

someone who was so inconsistant in his statements was evidently using Religion as a selling point early on to give him a shred of credibility.


In any case, this is hardly where we started. We went from Homosexuality to Hitler. This is was an effective way to change the subject somewhat.

Hitler was an absolute lunatic. If you wish to blame Christianity for the holocaust then now you have not only indicted Evangelicals, you might as well throw in Catholics, Baptists, Presybterians, Episcopalians, anyone who is believes in God and ************. How about the Jews themselves? After all, they believed in God. And look what the belief in God did, it led to Christianity which led to Hitler!

And you never did answer MY question regarding Woody Allen. Is Judiasm to blame for his marrying his step daughter?

So, how are you with God? Are you a sinner? Because this is what you are doing your utmost best to avoid. Hitler. You are in a desperate corner arent you?

 

[Tunescribe]

someone who was so inconsistant in his statements was evidently using Religion as a selling point early on to give him a shred of credibility.


In any case, this is hardly where we started. We went from Homosexuality to Hitler. This is was an effective way to change the subject somewhat.

Hitler was an absolute lunatic. If you wish to blame Christianity for the holocaust then now you have not only indicted Evangelicals, you might as well throw in Catholics, Baptists, Presybterians, Episcopalians, anyone who is believes in God and ************. How about the Jews themselves? After all, they believed in God. And look what the belief in God did, it led to Christianity which led to Hitler!

And you never did answer MY question regarding Woody Allen. Is Judiasm to blame for his marrying his step daughter?

So, how are you with God? Are you a sinner? Because this is what you are doing your utmost best to avoid. Hitler. You are in a desperate corner arent you?

Somehow it all comes together, doesn't it? Consider:

Hitler was a CHRISTIAN and a LUNATIC who INTERPRETED THE BIBLE LITERALLY, acknowledging that homosexuals and Jews would resist being "saved" and remain a threat to the homogenity of German society. Hence, the final solution -- exterminating them in the name of the Lord, as their "inferior" souls were going to hell anyway.

I'm doing great with God. How are you doing with God? It's obvious you're doing splendidly with religion, but the former remains a bit dubious.

P.S. I could care less about Woody Allen. As I recall, his stepdaughter was adopted so apparently the marriage is legal. I don't see where religion enters into it but on a spiritual level it just might be the proper path for both of them in this lifetime to learn whatever lessons are necessary for their souls to grow and evolve.