Football Outsiders, PFF and CHFF analysis of the Pats offensive line

[captain stone]

Koppen has actually exceeded my expectations in Denver. I think Koppen's early play along with the fact he can't play multiple positions hurt him. I think Wendell has been good in pass protection but much like Koppen he's sub par at best as a run blocker and always needs a combo block.

Granted this is a small sample size, but I've watched every one of Koppen's snaps
this season on Comcast's 12-minute highlights. He's never missed an assignment yet,
even when engaged in 1-on-1 blocking. And I thought that he dominated Wilfork during
their loss in Foxborough, including the 1-on-1s, although he did get combo help sometimes.

 

[patfanken]

Koppen has actually exceeded my expectations in Denver. I think Koppen's early play along with the fact he can't play multiple positions hurt him. I think Wendell has been good in pass protection but much like Koppen he's sub par at best as a run blocker and always needs a combo block.

Kind of an insight on your own knowledge...or lack thereof. Koppen was known as an EXCELLENT run blocker. It was his best thing. Trying to pretend knowledge when you don't have it is a dangerous thing.

As for Wendell's run blocking, I can't comment, since I don't know

 

[everlong]

Kind of an insight on your own knowledge...or lack thereof. Koppen was known as an EXCELLENT run blocker. It was his best thing. Trying to pretend knowledge when you don't have it is a dangerous thing.

As for Wendell's run blocking, I can't comment, since I don't know

I think you're the first person I've ever heard describe Koppen as an excellent run blocker. Early in his career he was a good run blocker but the last 4 or 5 years in NE there was plenty of commentary about how he never got any push in the run game and how if you put somebody over him it was even worse.

Regardless don't be a baby because I disagree with you. You claim in this thread you don't want to kill thoughtful discourse and yet you attack my knowledge over saying Koppen was a sub par run blocker? This wasn't trade Brady or BB has lost it. There's a reason they let Koppen go. There was also tons of threads and articles over the past few seasons about how Koppen had lost it as a run blocker and how we needed to draft an upgrade so I'm not the only person who shares that opinion.

I comment on lots of your threads and agree with most, disagree with some but I'm always respectful.

 

[everlong]

Granted this is a small sample size, but I've watched every one of Koppen's snaps
this season on Comcast's 12-minute highlights. He's never missed an assignment yet,
even when engaged in 1-on-1 blocking. And I thought that he dominated Wilfork during
their loss in Foxborough, including the 1-on-1s, although he did get combo help sometimes.

I've only seen the Pats game and the first half of the NO game but I'd agree he's been really good. I'd stop short of saying he dominated Vince since he always had help. But Denver had a good game plan for Vince and they did largely neutralize him. The guy was a great Patriot so I'm happy for him when they aren't playing us.

 

[Kontradiction]

I'd still rather have Koppen than Wendell. Connolly's better than either of them, but he's also our best Guard,
and Bill obviously believes that Wendell's a better Center than Thomas or McDonald are Guards.

When Mankins gets fully healthy, Connolly should shift inside to center and and Thomas should shift to RG.

 

[patfanken]

I think you're the first person I've ever heard describe Koppen as an excellent run blocker. Early in his career he was a good run blocker but the last 4 or 5 years in NE there was plenty of commentary about how he never got any push in the run game and how if you put somebody over him it was even worse.

Regardless don't be a baby because I disagree with you. You claim in this thread you don't want to kill thoughtful discourse and yet you attack my knowledge over saying Koppen was a sub par run blocker? This wasn't trade Brady or BB has lost it. There's a reason they let Koppen go. There was also tons of threads and articles over the past few seasons about how Koppen had lost it as a run blocker and how we needed to draft an upgrade so I'm not the only person who shares that opinion.

I comment on lots of your threads and agree with most, disagree with some but I'm always respectful.

OK, E, lets "discourse"

I think you took my comment too personally. If you did, I apologize. But I did find it surprising when you implied the Pats made a mistake releasing Koppen, and even more surprising when you called him a "sub par run blocker". It has been widely reported that its been just the opposite. Koppen has always been considered and excellent run blocker especially adept at getting to the 2nd level on rushes. One of the best in the league at this. However in recent years, even before his injury, he's been less than stout at the point of attack in pass protection. He had shown that teams could occasionally bull rush him and collapse the pocket. Nothing that was seen in training camp (according to Bedard) made the Pats feel more comfortable about that issue.

So the Pats had Connolly, who had already shown he was stronger in setting the middle all of 2011, and ultimately felt better about Wendell as well. So while I'm happy Koppen got a job. I'm happy that an injury got him to start, and he has a meaningful role with his new team. But I doubt VERY much that the Pats think that Dan Koppen is the better Center right now.

But if we must lets agree to disagree on this point, its not really important enough to argue about.

 

[patfanken]

When Mankins gets fully healthy, Connolly should shift inside to center and and Thomas should shift to RG.

Now that would be an interesting personnel decision if it happened....and telling. We shall probably get to see if it comes to pass in a couple of weeks

 

[Kontradiction]

Now that would be an interesting personnel decision if it happened....and telling. We shall probably get to see if it comes to pass in a couple of weeks

IMO, I would think that this would be the most solid line we could put together. Connolly is a better center than Wendell and Thomas has done a pretty good job filling in for Mankins.

 

[everlong]

OK, E, lets "discourse"

I think you took my comment too personally. If you did, I apologize. But I did find it surprising when you implied the Pats made a mistake releasing Koppen, and even more surprising when you called him a "sub par run blocker". It has been widely reported that its been just the opposite. Koppen has always been considered and excellent run blocker especially adept at getting to the 2nd level on rushes. One of the best in the league at this. However in recent years, even before his injury, he's been less than stout at the point of attack in pass protection. He had shown that teams could occasionally bull rush him and collapse the pocket. Nothing that was seen in training camp (according to Bedard) made the Pats feel more comfortable about that issue.

So the Pats had Connolly, who had already shown he was stronger in setting the middle all of 2011, and ultimately felt better about Wendell as well. So while I'm happy Koppen got a job. I'm happy that an injury got him to start, and he has a meaningful role with his new team. But I doubt VERY much that the Pats think that Dan Koppen is the better Center right now.

But if we must lets agree to disagree on this point, its not really important enough to argue about.

Well let's just call it a complete disconnect but saying that somebody is trying to project knowledge that isn't really there is calling somebody out IMO. I make no pretense about being a scout or understanding technique at a coaching level but I'd like to think I at least understand the basic concepts. In the draft forum there was discussion after discussion for several years running about Koppen's lack of ability to generate push on his own.

I didn't think it was a mistake that they let Koppen go at the time. Rather I've been surprised by how well he's played. It's honestly looked like the fountain of youth for him. Maybe the year off caused a lot of rust but healed him up for the first time in a long while. I don't know right now if Wendell or Koppen are the better of the two but given the age difference we can only assume Wendell will continue on the up swing and Koppen will start to run out of juice.

I do agree to disagree mostly because we are splitting hairs at this point.

 

[IllegalContact]

the improved play of the OL is huge, and they can get better.

the defense may improve, but not to the point where you can call it a strength....not this year anyway.......that said, if they can start generating a few more stops, along with the OL, this team will have what it takes to beat anyone.

the best teams in the AFC right now are very thin in some areas that would rear its head later in the season.....get to the NFC and as good as anyone has played, none of them have it all......except the giants

 

[PatsFanInVa]

9ers may not have the franchise QB but Alex Smith isn't the joke he once was. If I were watching that D every week I wouldn't be complaining. They seem to be okay at receiver & running back too, couldn't really comment too well on their O-line.... camera usually doesn't follow the O-line positions

 

[doesntmatter1]

I wanna get in on this oline debate. Wendell is a pretty good center first of all. I have watched the oline closely for years now and have watched him grow. Wendell has even outplayed connolly imo. If ninja still has it up on youtube in the 2010 season i clearly remember connonly struggling against the chargers and he is replaced without any word from the announcers by wendell and things just go on smooth with him in there. And if you review old games(too much time on my hands) you will see that wendell played alot more than you realize and is pretty good.

To my amateur eyes wendell is about equal in strength to koppen but he is more mobile than he ever was. Nobody on this team gets to the second level better than wendell and solder. Wendell is also very alert(rarely see any blown pass blocks) and strength isn't everything at center since they are always combo blocking with someone.

My question mark on this line is with mankins. Donald Thomas may actually be better than him.

 

[RodThePat]

I wanna get in on this oline debate. Wendell is a pretty good center first of all. I have watched the oline closely for years now and have watched him grow. Wendell has even outplayed connolly imo. If ninja still has it up on youtube in the 2010 season i clearly remember connonly struggling against the chargers and he is replaced without any word from the announcers by wendell and things just go on smooth with him in there. And if you review old games(too much time on my hands) you will see that wendell played alot more than you realize and is pretty good.

To my amateur eyes wendell is about equal in strength to koppen but he is more mobile than he ever was. Nobody on this team gets to the second level better than wendell and solder. Wendell is also very alert(rarely see any blown pass blocks) and strength isn't everything at center since they are always combo blocking with someone.

My question mark on this line is with mankins. Donald Thomas may actually be better than him.

Donald Thomas might be a better player than Logan Mankins? My goodness..

 

[Kontradiction]

I wanna get in on this oline debate. Wendell is a pretty good center first of all. I have watched the oline closely for years now and have watched him grow. Wendell has even outplayed connolly imo. If ninja still has it up on youtube in the 2010 season i clearly remember connonly struggling against the chargers and he is replaced without any word from the announcers by wendell and things just go on smooth with him in there. And if you review old games(too much time on my hands) you will see that wendell played alot more than you realize and is pretty good.

To my amateur eyes wendell is about equal in strength to koppen but he is more mobile than he ever was. Nobody on this team gets to the second level better than wendell and solder. Wendell is also very alert(rarely see any blown pass blocks) and strength isn't everything at center since they are always combo blocking with someone.

My question mark on this line is with mankins. Donald Thomas may actually be better than him.

You blew it with the last sentence, but were pretty convincing up until that. Mankins is injured. When healthy, he's one of the best LG's in football.

 

[doesntmatter1]

You blew it with the last sentence, but were pretty convincing up until that. Mankins is injured. When healthy, he's one of the best LG's in football.

lol. I had a feeling I was going too far. But I have some serious bias towards Mankins after his play against the giants etc. Like I kind of can't excuse his bad play regardless of the acl because he left a bad taste in my mouth from the last time he sucked against the giants in 07. I don't hate him or call for him to be benched but I wouldn't bat an eye if he is not on the field for an extended amount of time and i was on board with letting him heal on the pup when the season started.

 

[Kontradiction]

lol. I had a feeling I was going too far. But I have some serious bias towards Mankins after his play against the giants etc. Like I kind of can't excuse his bad play regardless of the acl because he left a bad taste in my mouth from the last time he sucked against the giants in 07. I don't hate him or call for him to be benched but I wouldn't bat an eye if he is not on the field for an extended amount of time and i was on board with letting him heal on the pup when the season started.

The entire O-Line got whipped in Super Bowl XLII. Kaczur was by far the worst. And Mankins actually held up very well in XLVI considering he was playing on a torn ACL.

 

[captain stone]

I agree. Though I haven't yet re-watched the 2nd half (yes, I still have last year's SB on the DVR),
I have the feeling that the OL wasn't nearly as responsible for that loss as it was for the loss in XLII.
(Not only was OxyKaczur awful then, so too was Hochstein after he replaced Neal.)
Reasons for the offense scoring only 17 points likely had more to do with untimely play-calling,
Brady not seeing open receivers, dropped passes (not Welker's), then maybe the OL.
The Pats should have very easily been up 21-7 following the TD on their first drive of the 2nd half.