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Did losing Adam V. cost us two Superbowls?


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First, I don't think Gostkowski really endeared himself nor did he win BB's confidence when he shanked a KO out of bounds following a Pats TD to give the Giants the ball at their 40. I actually posted my concerns about Gost flirting with the sideline too much months ago and I also used Carney shank in the '03 SB as an example for this concern.

While I don't think we'll know exactly what went through BB's head when he decided to go for it on 4th and 11, a few more things to consider:

Gostkowski for his career from the 40-49 range is 5 for 9 for a 55.6% success rate. The longest FG Gost made in the 2007 season was a 45 yarder.

The Patriots offense's 4th down conversions for the 2007 season was 16 for 24 which includes their 1 for 3 4th down conversion ratio in the post-season.

"Bellman Equation":

From a NY Times article, Feb. 1, '04

By David Leonhardt

[snip]

But when his conclusion - teams punt too much - began getting attention
last summer, a reporter asked Bill Belichick, the coach of the New
England Patriots, about the paper.


"I read it," he said, according to The Boston Herald. "I don't know much
of the math involved, but I think I understand the conclusions and he
has some valid points."


Upon hearing that, Professor Romer's jaw dropped, he said. His paper was
available only on his Berkeley Internet site, emlab.berkeley.edu
/users/dromer, and the site of a group called the National Bureau of
Economic Research.


But the most interesting development was yet to come. Two weeks ago,
facing a fourth down in the Patriots' own territory on the very first
drive of the game - a sure punting situation in the N.F.L. - Belichick
decided to go for a first down and made it. The Patriots soon scored a
touchdown and were on their way to today's Super Bowl, against the
Carolina Panthers.


Football analysts immediately called the decision an instance of a
coach's instinct triumphing over cold analysis. In fact, Professor Romer
said last week, Belichick seemed to be "throwing gut instinct out the
window and going on analysis." The information is right there in Figure
5 of the economist's paper: on fourth and 1 on your own 44-yard line,
the potential benefit of keeping the drive going outweighs the cost of
giving the opponents good field position.

[snip]

http://tinyurl.com/2tl4zd



Agreed, and yet I also think people downplaying or dismissing AV's Snowbowl and past SB winning kicks as merely any other kicks are way off.

Gostowski does kick kickoffs out of bounds too much in general, but I don't think it has anything to do with how Belichick feels about him on field goals.

As for Vinatieri, his kicks for the 2001 season and postseason were amazing, but his game winning kick in the Carolina Super Bowl has been overstated.

In fact, he is the reason the Pats were in the position of needing that last second kick at all. If it wasn't for Vinatieri, the Pats would have had a 9 point lead on that last drive. He missed two makable field goals in a dome and muffed a kickoff at the end of the first half that allowed the Panthers to score a field goal in two plays with only 12 second left on the clock when they started their drive.
 
Gostowski does kick kickoffs out of bounds too much in general, but I don't think it has anything to do with how Belichick feels about him on field goals.

I disagree. Given the context of the game, that being the SB, I think it did enter into the decision making process with respect to the non-attempt on 4th and 11.
As for Vinatieri, his kicks for the 2001 season and postseason were amazing, but his game winning kick in the Carolina Super Bowl has been overstated.

In fact, he is the reason the Pats were in the position of needing that last second kick at all. If it wasn't for Vinatieri, the Pats would have had a 9 point lead on that last drive. He missed two makable field goals in a dome and muffed a kickoff at the end of the first half that allowed the Panthers to score a field goal in two plays with only 12 second left on the clock when they started their drive.
Sure, AV missed early FGs, but he made the one that counted and I'm really not sure why people insist his clutch kick should be regardless as less than what it was because he had missed kicks earlier in the game.
 
You are all wrong !!
BB loved SG & AV.
He has no faith in Lonnie Paxton.
The guy sucks so bad if he was a running back he would be named Maroney.
The guy sucks so bad if he was a linebacker he would be named Thomas or Vrabel.
Quick,someone start a Lonnie sucks thread!
Let's use our #7 on a long snapper.
Remember it is our god given right to win the SB year after year and when the Pats don't we must get a scapegoat.
 
I disagree. Given the context of the game, that being the SB, I think it did enter into the decision making process with respect to the non-attempt on 4th and 11.

Sure, AV missed early FGs, but he made the one that counted and I'm really not sure why people insist his clutch kick should be regardless as less than what it was because he had missed kicks earlier in the game.

I don't think it neccessarily factored into the decision and if it did, shame on Belichick. Gostkoski overall had a pretty good year and if he let his displeasure in a kick off to decide whether to let Gostkowski to kick a field goal, then it was bad coaching. Granted it was bad coaching to go for it in a close game with it being 4th and really long.

Fact of the matter is that even when Vinatieri was here, Belichick didn't like to kick field goals over 40 yards. That probably played the biggest part of it.

I definitely think if a kicker makes some bad kicks that puts his team in position of needing a clutch kick in the last seconds of the game, it should count against him. If Brady and the offense weren't able to drive down the field to put him in the position to kick a field goal and the Panthers won in overtime, Vinateri would have been the primary reason the Pats lost the game. I can't discount that when evaluating Vinatieri's performance in that game. He had a horrible game save that great clutch field goal.
 
I honestly don't think Adam V. had anything with us not winning Super Bowl XLI.
- Stevie Ghost was perfect in the postseason, including a 50 yard field goal
- we lost because of the TDs we gave up in Indy
 
It's not Adam V.

Do you guys realize we haven't won a SINGLE Super Bowl since letting Hank Poteat go?

;)
 
Lol, no.. It's definitely not because of Adam V. He has played very bad in clutch situations thus far for Indy.. He hasn't been nearly as big for us as he was for you guys.

You guys actually remind me of the Colts a couple years back.. Very high powered offense, but if the offense doesn't produce a ton of points, you will probably lose. A.K.A no defense.

It seems like the Colts are starting to turn the other way.. Our offense is pretty good, but seemingly the defense is now the team focal point and bright spot.. Kind of weird seeing how our Offense is ranked higher in the league then our defense. But that's just how it is.

If you find the right defensive players for your team, then I think you would get significantly better.
 
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Maybe I should start daily rather than weekly countdown threads. At least I know mine won't be the very worst threads on the board. Wow.
 
Maybe I should start daily rather than weekly countdown threads. At least I know mine won't be the very worst threads on the board. Wow.

go read the Jimi Hendrix/Moss comparison one.

it's worse
 
I don't think it neccessarily factored into the decision and if it did, shame on Belichick.

Considering that Gost had done this before in a regular season game, I cannot imagine it was not discussed afterwards. Obviously, kicking the ball out of bounds following a TD is one of the worst results you can pin on a kicker in that situation so I think it's reasonable to assume that BB directly or via Seeley had gone over this with the kicker prior to the SB. And yet, Gost did kick the ball out of bounds and I really can't say BB having lost a degree of confidence or even if he were miffed by his kicker was bad coaching. But my initial post was much more than merely this.
Gostkoski overall had a pretty good year and if he let his displeasure in a kick off to decide whether to let Gostkowski to kick a field goal, then it was bad coaching. Granted it was bad coaching to go for it in a close game with it being 4th and really long.

Well, you quoted my entire first post in the thread, but now, I'm not so sure you read it. There's much more there than what might be reduced to BB electing to go for it on 4th and 11 only because he was displeased with Gost kicking the ball out of bound following a TD. What I'm suggesting is that this was one of the factors that played a role in the decision.
 
Honestly I don't want to start a big fight but I think what cost the Patriots 2 superbowls was that draft where no defensive players were taken. If I am not mistaken, the Pat's D got so worn down that each Manning stomped all over them in the 4th Q; meanwhile, G.Mills, D.Thomas, C.Jackson were watching the game from their living rooms.
 
This thread is ****ing stupid. Adam V. is a Patriot HOF'er hands down. He WON SB's for us with his leg. I don't remember any missed FG's leading to losses the last 2 years.

I distinctly remember the D giving up late TD's with no time left that ****ed us. Vinatraitor may have bolted to Indy, but the outcome of the last 2 years has NOTHING to do with him.
 
AV missed a chip shot game winner against the chargers in 2007.
 
Maybe I should start daily rather than weekly countdown threads. At least I know mine won't be the very worst threads on the board. Wow.

How about a "Who would win in a bar room fight? Brady or Manning?" Thread.

This is killlllllllllling me. I need for the season to start.
 
16-0, 18-1 isn't very good, is it? Significantly better?
Like maybe not choking in the Super Bowl, better.

Sorry, don't post something to try and get me going if you think nothing is coming.. I'm not one to lash out.. But ya, can if someone does first.
 
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It's not Adam V.

Do you guys realize we haven't won a SINGLE Super Bowl since letting Hank Poteat go?

;)


Actually JSP you signed up in 2004? and that was the last one we won... :rofl: :bricks:
 
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