Conservative Catholics Feel Left Out???

[IcyPatriot]

I guess it's not just Obama making conservatives angry ...

why are these people so angry all the time?

Everyday angry at this and angry at that ... maybe Pope Francis is to happy for them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/u...-feel-left-out-of-the-popes-embrace.html?_r=0

In the eight months since he became pope, Francis has won affection worldwide for his humble mien and common touch. His approval numbers are skyrocketing. Even atheists are applauding.

But not everyone is so enchanted. Some Catholics in the church’s conservative wing in the United States say Francis has left them feeling abandoned and deeply unsettled. On the Internet and in conversations among themselves, they despair that after 35 years in which the previous popes, John Paul II and Benedict XVI, drew clear boundaries between right and wrong, Francis is muddying Catholic doctrine to appeal to the broadest possible audience.

In parsing Francis’ statements in recent weeks, other conservative Catholics are concluding that nothing he has said contradicts the Catholic catechism, with some of his language even echoing Benedict’s. But in interviews, the words that conservatives used most often to characterize Francis were “naïve” and “imprudent.” They believe that he is saying things in ways that the news media and the church’s “enemies” are able to distort, and that there are consequences.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

LOL @ conservative catholics thinking the Pope is "impudent" for phrasing himself differently from how they would...

Doesn't the word "Pope" come from, basically, "Papa?"

If so, conservative catholics, you have to ask yourself one question (but for best effect, ask three times)

WhosyourdaddyWhosyourdaddyWhosyourdaddy

PFnV

 

[RI Patriots fan]

I guess it's not just Obama making conservatives angry ...

why are these people so angry all the time?

Everyday angry at this and angry at that ... maybe Pope Francis is to happy for them.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/10/u...-feel-left-out-of-the-popes-embrace.html?_r=0

I think that some faithful Catholics are concerned that the Pope may not understand that when he gives an interview, it will be interpreted by a person who has no background in the faith. So, for example, when he says that atheists are "redeemed", he doesn't understand that the average person thinks that he's saying that atheists are saved by their "good works". So obviously, the Pope is naive when it comes to communications and the Press.

But faithful Catholics are right when they say he's a bit naive. The Pope freely admits that he's naive:


"but it is also true that I am a bit naïve.

And this is strange, because I am a really, really undisciplined person."



Pope Francis: 'I am a sinner whom the Lord has looked upon' | World news | theguardian.com


That being said, I think this Pope is a great gift to the church. I love his desire to live humbly. I think it resonates with a great many people.

He will eventually learn how to communicate through the Press. But you can't learn to be loving and humble and that's something this Pope has in great abundance.

 

[IcyPatriot]

LOL @ conservative catholics thinking the Pope is "impudent" for phrasing himself differently from how they would...

Doesn't the word "Pope" come from, basically, "Papa?"

If so, conservative catholics, you have to ask yourself one question (but for best effect, ask three times)

WhosyourdaddyWhosyourdaddyWhosyourdaddy

PFnV

You see PF ... and I'm sure you know that Catholics do not think that God speaks through the pope ... so why then does the pope bother praying if he's always saying "Can you hear me now" :confused4: I always thought the Pope is one step away from God for the common man?

 

[IcyPatriot]

I think that some faithful Catholics are concerned that the Pope may not understand that when he gives an interview, it will be interpreted by a person who has no background in the faith. So, for example, when he says that atheists are "redeemed", he doesn't understand that the average person thinks that he's saying that atheists are saved by their "good works". So obviously, the Pope is naive when it comes to communications and the Press.

But faithful Catholics are right when they say he's a bit naive. The Pope freely admits that he's naive:


"but it is also true that I am a bit naïve.

And this is strange, because I am a really, really undisciplined person."



Pope Francis: 'I am a sinner whom the Lord has looked upon' | World news | theguardian.com


That being said, I think this Pope is a great gift to the church. I love his desire to live humbly. I think it resonates with a great many people.

He will eventually learn how to communicate through the Press. But you can't learn to be loving and humble and that's something this Pope has in great abundance.

I would think the majority of Catholics do not have the understanding that you do. there are some like me who think maybe ... just maybe God is speaking through the pope. I am not a hardcore Catholic mind you ... and I don't pretend to be one ... just saying ... don't want to come across as a know it all ... clearly that is not the case for me when it comes to the Catholic teachings.

However ... I do like this pope a lot ... I like his humbleness ... I kind of think the pope is a human simpler version of Jesus ... the greatest achievement of all ... gathering the flock and making it larger - that seems to be key for Pope Francis. Maybe in this confusing world being spoken to might be better than being spoken down to.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

I would think the majority of Catholics do not have the understanding that you do. there are some like me who think maybe ... just maybe God is speaking through the pope. I am not a hardcore Catholic mind you ... and I don't pretend to be one ... just saying ... don't want to come across as a know it all ... clearly that is not the case for me when it comes to the Catholic teachings.

However ... I do like this pope a lot ... I like his humbleness ... I kind of think the pope is a human simpler version of Jesus ... the greatest achievement of all ... gathering the flock and making it larger - that seems to be key for Pope Francis. Maybe in this confusing world being spoken to might be better than being spoken down to.

Sadly, most Catholics don't understand their own faith. It's a sad reality, unfortunately. So some will see what they want to see when the Pope speaks rather than trying to understand what he meant by what he said....big difference.

I honestly think he's still learning what it means to be a Pope. In all fairness, there really isn't a "Pope school" that one can attend and learn how to be Pope so I can understand that he may make some mistakes initially (Benedict made some mistakes....why can't Francis).

I think his naivety, although a weakness in the short term, will be a strength in the long term. I think he sees things brilliantly but with the innocence of a true follower of Christ. I think a great many people will be drawn to him and hopefully to ************.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Sadly, most Catholics don't understand their own faith. It's a sad reality, unfortunately. So some will see what they want to see when the Pope speaks rather than trying to understand what he meant by what he said....big difference.

I honestly think he's still learning what it means to be a Pope. In all fairness, there really isn't a "Pope school" that one can attend and learn how to be Pope so I can understand that he may make some mistakes initially (Benedict made some mistakes....why can't Francis).

I think his naivety, although a weakness in the short term, will be a strength in the long term. I think he sees things brilliantly but with the innocence of a true follower of Christ. I think a great many people will be drawn to him and hopefully to ************.

All these holy books (God's words and laws) written so many years ago ...

What if they were written today ... might they be different?

I think the majority of people of all faiths are seriously lacking in the strict teachings of their faith.

I think if you live an honest, caring life looking out for your fellow man ... that's pretty good.

I don't think the majority of people could lead the strict devoted life that is written

... or would not be happy doing so even if they could give it a try - that is a 100% devotion to God.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

All these holy books (God's words and laws) written so many years ago ...

What if they were written today ... might they be different?

I think the majority of people of all faiths are seriously lacking in the strict teachings of their faith.

I think if you live an honest, caring life looking out for your fellow man ... that's pretty good.

I don't think the majority of people could lead the strict devoted life that is written

... or would not be happy doing so even if they could give it a try - that is a 100% devotion to God.

We, as Catholics, believe that what we were given....both in written teaching and oral teaching comes to us directly from God. So if it was given to us by God, then why would it be any different today? And if it wasn't given to us by God then why bother with it at all?

Our Catholic faith tells us that God didn't hand us a bunch of rules and then abandon us. We, as Catholics, believe that we experience "God in us" every day in his grace which strengthens us to do what he asks of us.
Of course there are times that we falter, but that grace that God gives us each day to inspire us also heals us when we fall short through sin.

I do not believe that anyone of us can live a truly honest and just life by God's standards and I don't believe that God wants "pretty good". I think God in his love wants what is absolutely best for us which is perfection if not on this earth then in the life to come. Without God, this perfection is impossible. With Christ in our heart, God moves us slowly but surely to this perfection which is our birthright and our destiny.

 

[DarrylS]

Conservative Catholics Feel is an oxymoron?? Conservative Catholics do not feel they interpret rule upon rule and question the basic rules of their founder.

Feeling is not in the Baltimore Catechism and has not been addressed by the Magisterium, ergo it does not exist.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Conservative Catholics Feel is an oxymoron?? Conservative Catholics do not feel they interpret rule upon rule and question the basic rules of their founder.

Feeling is not in the Baltimore Catechism and has not been addressed by the Magisterium, ergo it does not exist.

Wow, thanks for that well thought out and insightful addition to this thread.

Catholics have had an updated catechism since 1992...welcome to the 21st century.

So catholics interpret rule after rule....truly genius. With observations like that, who could possibly not take you seriously?

 

[IcyPatriot]

We, as Catholics, believe that what we were given....both in written teaching and oral teaching comes to us directly from God. So if it was given to us by God, then why would it be any different today? And if it wasn't given to us by God then why bother with it at all?

Our Catholic faith tells us that God didn't hand us a bunch of rules and then abandon us. We, as Catholics, believe that we experience "God in us" every day in his grace which strengthens us to do what he asks of us.
Of course there are times that we falter, but that grace that God gives us each day to inspire us also heals us when we fall short through sin.

I do not believe that anyone of us can live a truly honest and just life by God's standards and I don't believe that God wants "pretty good". I think God in his love wants what is absolutely best for us which is perfection if not on this earth then in the life to come. Without God, this perfection is impossible. With Christ in our heart, God moves us slowly but surely to this perfection which is our birthright and our destiny.

Fair enough ... it just seems that religion was more adaptable to when it was written than it is now. Do you think it's possible some of it would be different if it was written in these times? Not so much the devotion and sacrifice to God part ... that seems adaptable to any time ... but some of the other stuff. Also ... I still think women should be allowed to be priests ... I think that would be different in these times. men back then looked at women differently. As i have said before ... my in depth knowledge of course is lacking.

I also find it amazing that there are so many different faiths ...
Did God speak to geographical locations differently or are there many Gods in God?
Also ... Atheists seem to like this Pope ... now that seems very odd.

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Fair enough ... it just seems that religion was more adaptable to when it was written than it is now. Do you think it's possible some of it would be different if it was written in these times? Not so much the devotion and sacrifice to God part ... that seems adaptable to any time ... but some of the other stuff. Also ... I still think women should be allowed to be priests ... I think that would be different in these times. men back then looked at women differently. As i have said before ... my in depth knowledge of course is lacking.

I also find it amazing that there are so many different faiths ...
Did God speak to geographical locations differently or are there many Gods in God?
Also ... Atheists seem to like this Pope ... now that seems very odd.

I don't think the Catholic faith would be different because it's author is the creator of the universe. His truth is eternal. His knowledge complete.
Why would we change what came from perfection? The only question would be...did it really come from perfection? But that's another topic.

As for women priests, Jesus certainly wasn't afraid to challenge cultural norms to get his message across. Clearly, he had women disciples throughout his life at a time when women were to be seen and not heard.
Yet when it came time to choose his Apostles, he chose only men. I think this was a clear statement that God wanted his priesthood to continue on with it's 3000 year tradition of being all male.

I think that humans have a God sized hole in their souls. It's in our nature to search for him. But without grace, we can never truly come to know him. So we search and search and search and sometimes we fill that hole with reflections of God.
In return God came to us in the person of ************, to give us the gift of himself to fill that God sized hole in our hearts.
As Catholics and Christians it is our calling to show the entire world the good news of ************ in our words and most importantly in our lives so that all may come to know and possess, grace....."God in us".

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Fair enough ... it just seems that religion was more adaptable to when it was written than it is now. Do you think it's possible some of it would be different if it was written in these times? Not so much the devotion and sacrifice to God part ... that seems adaptable to any time ... but some of the other stuff. Also ... I still think women should be allowed to be priests ... I think that would be different in these times. men back then looked at women differently. As i have said before ... my in depth knowledge of course is lacking.

I also find it amazing that there are so many different faiths ...
Did God speak to geographical locations differently or are there many Gods in God?
Also ... Atheists seem to like this Pope ... now that seems very odd.

LOL... well, he says he loves them, Icy. He says let's meet at the things we agree on.

And in terms of his emphasis within Catholicism, it's firmly on the side of very real things, like doing the right thing by the poor, the orphan, the widow, the basics of so many faiths.

I haven't seen him getting wrapped around the axle about "pet issues" that US conservatives are so cranked up about, which also seem to coincide w/Catholic doctrine.

However, he's bound to make wealthy, more conservative types nervous. He's from the third world... as Jesus was, in his time. He wants a church for the people, not just one kind of people, all the people, it seems.

From what I have seen, I like him a lot.

You're right. Fighting is for us on earth. God's actual work isn't everybody fighting against each other in his name... it's helping people who can't fight, giving to those w/less, etc. That comes up time after time in religions.

 

[IcyPatriot]

LOL... well, he says he loves them, Icy. He says let's meet at the things we agree on.

And in terms of his emphasis within Catholicism, it's firmly on the side of very real things, like doing the right thing by the poor, the orphan, the widow, the basics of so many faiths.

I haven't seen him getting wrapped around the axle about "pet issues" that US conservatives are so cranked up about, which also seem to coincide w/Catholic doctrine.

However, he's bound to make wealthy, more conservative types nervous. He's from the third world... as Jesus was, in his time. He wants a church for the people, not just one kind of people, all the people, it seems.

From what I have seen, I like him a lot.

You're right. Fighting is for us on earth. God's actual work isn't everybody fighting against each other in his name... it's helping people who can't fight, giving to those w/less, etc. That comes up time after time in religions.

Like I posted on before ... i had a girlfriend whose father loved watching the Rev. Schuler. One day I'm watching with him and Schuler comes out and basically says what if we're wrong ... what if religion has it wrong ... would it be so bad if everyone tried to live their faith to it's fullest. Or what if a faith was wrong vs another faith ... if those people are living by that faith and it calls for being good, honest, caring, giving etc... what would be wrong with that?

So ... the bottom line was even if religion or a religion is wrong ... that people are trying to live that religion is a good thing because religion by and large is a good thing. I don't recall how he applied that to Atheists ... I was younger then.

but I never forgot that because most of us we don't have time to really divulge ourselves into religion like say RI does. Not that what he does should be mocked ... quite the contrary ... that he lives his faith as he sees it should be applauded. That he follows it strictly and conservatively would be his business ... and I'm guessing by his opinion he's living it as God wishes ... that's fine but very hard for most people.

I had a grandmother who went to church every morning ... don't know how she did it. Severe arthritis and bursitis ... would not accept a ride for the 1/2 mile walk. Died peacefully in her sleep one night after a bad fall ... the same night a priest came to her home to give her communion which was 3 days after the fall ... still think God came and got her ... it was too well scripted to think otherwise.

For the rest of us who may be of different faiths or different levels of devotion I think what Rev. Schuler said is a positive thing ... live life good - be good - be helpful and make a mark with others in a positive manner. I think for those of us less devoted ... God would be happy with that and if we pushed it a bit more ... well that would be better but less is not bad either.

Just my opinion ... i was born Catholic ... prefer to call myself a partially devoted Christian. I'd rather live the life in my own way ... I'm not crazy about the church part ... too much hypocrisy there for my liking. Hopefully I've done enough to earn a ride on the up elevator ... if there is such a thing ...

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Thank God the up and down elevators don't come into it for me. I was raised around it enough that it seeped in as a sort of a folk custom thing, but it's not emphasized in my religion. I worry about things like providing for some golden years for me & my Mrs., and I worry about her mom over in the midwest, and her own health (being responsible for the older generation takes a chunk outta ya.) Got no time for anybody convinced they've "got it," regardless of their source. "It's" all around you, for my money, not in any particular organization or text. I notice sometimes as I go that the other humans who wrote some of my favorite texts have had insights which coincide with the things I'm feeling. I don't assign otherworldly intervention to these feelings.

But that's a hijack, really -- except to the extent that getting to the heart of a particular religion and living it seems to be Francis' focus -- which seems to be among the most needy.

 

[DarrylS]

In child development theory, this is a classic case of "parallel play".

 

[RI Patriots fan]

Thank God the up and down elevators don't come into it for me. I was raised around it enough that it seeped in as a sort of a folk custom thing, but it's not emphasized in my religion. I worry about things like providing for some golden years for me & my Mrs., and I worry about her mom over in the midwest, and her own health (being responsible for the older generation takes a chunk outta ya.) Got no time for anybody convinced they've "got it," regardless of their source. "It's" all around you, for my money, not in any particular organization or text. I notice sometimes as I go that the other humans who wrote some of my favorite texts have had insights which coincide with the things I'm feeling. I don't assign otherworldly intervention to these feelings.

But that's a hijack, really -- except to the extent that getting to the heart of a particular religion and living it seems to be Francis' focus -- which seems to be among the most needy.

Saint Francis on how he describes himself:


"Yes, but the best summary, the one that comes more from the inside and I feel most true is this: I am a sinner whom the Lord has looked upon."

Pope Francis: 'I am a sinner whom the Lord has looked upon' | World news | theguardian.com

This is the heart of his religion.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Saint Francis on how he describes himself:


"Yes, but the best summary, the one that comes more from the inside and I feel most true is this: I am a sinner whom the Lord has looked upon."

Pope Francis: 'I am a sinner whom the Lord has looked upon' | World news | theguardian.com

This is the heart of his religion.

This seems to me to be the appealing part ... some of us see a bit a Pope Francis in us. Of course some more than others ... we're all at differing levels of dedication and knowledge. On the one hand he is the religious expert knowing all that stuff you know ... and then he's a bit like some of us ... still learning and still asking questions ... it's appealing. I liked John Paul II also ... a lot.

 

[IllegalContact]

fricking dog and pony show

 

[PatsFanInVa]

In child development theory, this is a classic case of "parallel play".

Wikipedia says it may be helping us develop our language skills.